Class 387

[The Box Photter]

The seat squab and back width might be exactly the same on the 387s and the 700s, but you get more space on the 387s because they have an armrest between the seats and the seats are spaced away from the interior wall by a fixed armrest.

On the class 700 mock-up which I sampled at the Excel exhibition last year, I commented to one of the First Group talking heads that the seats were not uncomfortable but there would be complaints about being squashed up against the side of the carriage/window with no room for arms and shoulders. I also asked whether they had considered the imapct of condensation on passengers and their clothing when forced to press against the carriage side by a fat-arsed passenger sitting on the gangway seat. The response was dismissive and along the lines of "... because the trains are air-conditioned there won't be any condensation"

That comment was, of course made before any in-service testing had taken place involving a full complement of passengers who like to breathe in and breathe out quite a lot.

 

[jon0844]

To be fair, I doubt condensation will be a big problem on all but the worst days (weather wise).

I'm on a 387 now (1W21) and for all my rants about Bombardier, I have to say they've done good.

I like the new journey planner above the doors, and it's nice and bright inside. Was surprised not to see more LED lighting though.

But, the seats. I'm actually going to say that they are rather hard at the back, but actually feel quite good (and from an orthopedic POV probably are). The bases are firm, but there's still a fair bit of padding as the cushion is thicker than it looks.

Would it be comfortable for a trip from Bedford to Brighton? Maybe not, but if it's not that busy all the way there is stacks of room to get up and walk around.

Whoever gets these trains after will be very happy I think.

PS. in anticipation of checking the seats, here are some seats from the bus to St Albans...

PPS. At West Hampstead now and 377 507 has come in next to me, showing 'Electrostar' on the side panels. I can see in and the text is working inside, so why isn't it showing the destination outside?

Update: Door problem at St Pancras. Driver apologised and said he would fix it. Then the doors made a clunk, door out of use sign came on (and then off) before the lights came on and the button lit up. Delay approx 30 seconds, so nothing serious.

Update 2: got some food and went back to get another train and saw 387 114 on its own. Also had door delays, and was presumably short formed as the display said 'first class available first class is declassified'. So which is it? And those 10 seats probably don't quite make up for the loss of four carriages.

And when I got off at Farringdon, I noticed the rear wipers going and making a horrid squeaking sound. The cab was empty!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Would it be comfortable for a trip from Bedford to Brighton? Maybe not, but if it's not that busy all the way there is stacks of room to get up and walk around.

How many people are going to travel regularly from Bedford to Brighton (or vice versa)? Most will travel to the airports or London.

 

[richa2002]

How many people are going to travel regularly from Bedford to Brighton (or vice versa)? Most will travel to the airports or London.

Gatwick and Luton aren't overly far from Brighton and Bedford respectively so we're still talking journeys of an hour+ if you're crossing London to reach the airport.

I've yet to sample a 387 though so reserving judgement until I've experienced one on my regular trips to Brighton from Harpenden.

 

[jon0844]

In my opinion they're fine. But it's odd that first class is marked only for ten seats when it's clear from the door it's supposed to be a lot of the middle section too.

Once you're down to so few seats (same as on the 377s now one end is permanently declassified) you are at a point where you perhaps consider ditching it completely.

Who will pay for first class once all the 319s are gone? Unless it's a first class season covering other services where it's worthwhile.

And I'm now on a 317/6 and the seats aren't that much more comfortable, and the angle of the seat back means you're only supported at the lower back. You'd have to sit really stupidly to touch the rest.

And the leg room is less, as I noticed because i had to really pull back to fit the seat bases in!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Who'd have thought this was going to blow up as a big seat debate on a 387 thread? Guess us Brits just like to complain!

When I do have to commute on the train, I don't have time to think about comfort - I'm just very glad if I'm ever lucky to get a seat (any seat!)

On the other hand, the car is an alternative option at other times - and it's quite comfy too

 

[swt_passenger]

...But it's odd that first class is marked only for ten seats when it's clear from the door it's supposed to be a lot of the middle section too.

Not odd once you assume the door has been specced for a range of 'next users' after Thameslink, anything from GW to Oxford and Newbury, or MML to Corby, or <insert other random TOC and route of your choice here>...

 

[jon0844]

Maybe, but they're not going for a while. As such, I think it is odd. Ultimately on TL, first class is now pointless as irrespective of the fact that people often sit there anyway with standard tickets, there simply aren't enough seats (you're not getting any more luxury, so first class is basically increasing the chance of a seat). 10, 20 or 30 on a 12 car? Not a lot, and by the looks of it, if a service is short formed as 4 (are there many scheduled 4 car operations?) then they're declassified.

So on that basis, you'd be a fool to pay for first class ever.

But, ultimately it's not a big deal. I expect few people get first class, and now it's no longer FCC you won't even get people like my mum accidentally buying a first class ticket because she saw 'first' on the TVM and assumed it was the operator. Mind you, she sat in standard anyway!

 

[James Wake]

The 0756 from Three Bridges this morning was declassified as it was 387114 on its own, I couldn't board as it was so busy, would have been my second trip on a 387. Hoping for one this weekend when I go to St Albans and back, although would like a 319 for one leg.

 

[Fincra5]

Maybe, but they're not going for a while. As such, I think it is odd. Ultimately on TL, first class is now pointless as irrespective of the fact that people often sit there anyway with standard tickets, there simply aren't enough seats (you're not getting any more luxury, so first class is basically increasing the chance of a seat). 10, 20 or 30 on a 12 car? Not a lot, and by the looks of it, if a service is short formed as 4 (are there many scheduled 4 car operations?) then they're declassified.

So on that basis, you'd be a fool to pay for first class ever.

But, ultimately it's not a big deal. I expect few people get first class, and now it's no longer FCC you won't even get people like my mum accidentally buying a first class ticket because she saw 'first' on the TVM and assumed it was the operator. Mind you, she sat in standard anyway!

I saw the Blackfriars that TL has no first class North of the Thames, is this so?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I saw the Blackfriars that TL has no first class North of the Thames, is this so?

I don't commute on TL but some units (319/0's and 319/3's) purposely have no First Class. This harks back to the days when most of the 319/0's were refurbished and classified as 319/3 for metro/suburban work and 319/4 for long distance work. Of course the classes got mixed up and interworked with each other on all routes.

As far as I know, all the remaining 319's have First Class along with all 377's. I'm not sure if First Class has been declassified in the 319/2's.

 

[jon0844]

I saw a 319 with first class today, the one with very nice spacious and very comfortable seating. Not sure what class.

But they will be the minority.

 

[TEW]

It's the other way round. An increasing majority of the 319 fleet has First Class fitted. All the units transferred away from Thameslink duties so far have been Standard Class only 319/3s.

 

[phil beard]

How many people are going to travel regularly from Bedford to Brighton (or vice versa)? Most will travel to the airports or London.

Yes, but many WILL travel th full distance, and train seats should be designed for the whole distance involved, not a core section. Otherwise, why not have Pendolino seating suitable for Euston - MKC instead of GC?

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, but many WILL travel th full distance, and train seats should be designed for the whole distance involved, not a core section. Otherwise, why not have Pendolino seating suitable for Euston - MKC instead of GC?

Whole distance is not Bedford to Brighton but around 90mins.

387114 was on its own due to a unit fault.

All Bedford services should have first class but St Albans/Luton won't.

Reason why first class is declassified is its an agreement with passenger groups for short forming trains.

 

[jon0844]

It's good to declassify first, but it's also rather silly on a train that has just 10 seats. The words 'big deal' spring to mind.

And it also needs to be changed so you aren't told there's first class available and that first class is declassified. Okay, I'm being petty but it's still silly and surely easily fixed.

 

[mrmatt]

I have to admit they are quiet and smooth. Also the PIS is much clearer than any train I have ever been on.

The one thing I have never understood about the elctrostar family is why the overhead racks are so tight compared to mk3 based stock. Is the bodyshell profile really that different?

 

[hassaanhc]

I have to admit they are quiet and smooth. Also the PIS is much clearer than any train I have ever been on.

The one thing I have never understood about the elctrostar family is why the overhead racks are so tight compared to mk3 based stock. Is the bodyshell profile really that different?

On Electrostars the sides curve inwards, starting from just below the windows, whereas the Mk3 has more-or-less straight sides. The air conditioning equipment also makes the ceiling slightly lower on an Electrostar than a Mk3. And the luggage racks are tilted inwards more on an Electrostar.

377 interior: https://flic.kr/p/qvPFGh
Vs 455 interior: https://flic.kr/p/k7NFUe

 

[jon0844]

The 387s are so much brighter inside than the 377s.



Despite the bins being really obvious, the second (4-car) service I got from St Pancras to Farringdon was a right mess, with loads of Metros and coffee cups. I actually picked up the cups and put them in the bin myself, but left the Metros in a tidy pile.

I see people still think that by leaving a Metro on the seat, table, or floor, they're not littering and merely leaving it for someone else.

 

[AM9]

Yes, but many WILL travel th full distance, and train seats should be designed for the whole distance involved, not a core section. Otherwise, why not have Pendolino seating suitable for Euston - MKC instead of GC?

A very small proportion of the total will travel the full distance. The average journey on Thameslink North is probably between 35 and 45 minutes, equivalent to Luton Airport Parkway to Farringdon on a fast/semi-fast (45 mins) or Radlett to City Thameslink on a stopper (37 mins).
Although i am not a regular commuter, I travel enough on the peak trains to see about half of the passengers alight at St Pancras, and by Blackfriars there are probably less than 15% of seats occupied, and most of those boarded at St Pancras and Farringdon. Of course the train then picks up again at London Bridge, (or did until a couple of weeks ago) to start what is effectively a separate journey.
So the seating and layout of the coaches are designed to cope with the largest volume of passengers' needs (many of whom won't get an opportunity to sit). The door design and gangway/vestibule openings will also be to minimise dwell times as will be needed in the core. The 387s are loaners to overcome the late ordering of the 700s, but just like the 377s they are far from ideal. They can cope with the 16 tph of Thameslink traffic alone but would be an impediment when the GN services hit and the ferquency is 24tph.
Despite all the ranting about the hardness of seats, most passengers would rather have a train that actually gets them to their desitnation on time, than one where comfort is the main driver at the expense of efficiency that takes so much longer.
The seat designs may be changed at the next update/refresh when the trains are redeployed to another different route. I doubt that the 387s will be deployed outside the London commuter region though, - they would only complain as that would be giving them London's cast offs!

 

[sarahj]

I caught my first 387 yesterday from Brighton to the Heath. At first I was thinking, the seats are very upright, but by the time I got to the heath (only 13 mins) I found them to be ok. did like the legroom. Better than a 3+2 377.

One big groan when you board a 377 and start to check tickets is to find its a unit with all 4 cars with HD (3+2) seating. When they are busy its a pain to get through.

 

[James Wake]

One big groan when you board a 377 and start to check tickets is to find its a unit with all 4 cars with HD (3+2) seating. When they are busy its a pain to get through.

I agree Sarah, if I'm trying to walk down the train to get to my preferred coach, it is such a pain when they are HD 377s and busy as people always are sticking out into the aisles.

 

[12CSVT]

387114 was on its own due to a unit fault.

387114 has been on its own for the past few days. Has it got a fault that prevents it working in multiple with other units ?

 

[jon0844]

I think it has an attitude problem. Won't couple up to other units, won't open the doors in a timely fashion...

Probably needs to be grounded for a few days to reflect.

 

[Class377/5]

387114 has been on its own for the past few days. Has it got a fault that prevents it working in multiple with other units ?

No its not.

 

[asylumxl]

I got my first proper ride on a 387 today between Blackfriars and Luton.

Firstly, the seats. I don't feel they're as awful as some claim, but I do prefer the seats in the end carriages of the 377/5s.

The PIS seems to have all the same quirks as other members of the Electrostar family, with no announcements from City Thameslink until we departed St Albans.

The suspension seems somewhat better and less prone to bottoming out, but I did notice a bit more creaking from the body shell. I imagine they are lighter and slightly less rigid than previous versions?

 

[21C101]

Despite all the ranting about the hardness of seats, most passengers would rather have a train that actually gets them to their desitnation on time, than one where comfort is the main driver at the expense of efficiency that takes so much longer.

How exactly does making the cushions on the seats that have slightly more give than a park bench improve punctuality?

Certainly I don't notice people on the new (Bombardier built) circle line trains sticking to their seats at stations, delaying the train, despite the seats having far more give (and therefore being more comfortable - despite a low back).

Have to also say that I'm not over keen on the bright lighting and constant announcements as they, also, keep me awake.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the lighting stops you missing your stop!

 

[AM9]

How exactly does making the cushions on the seats that have slightly more give than a park bench improve punctuality?

Certainly I don't notice people on the new (Bombardier built) circle line trains sticking to their seats at stations, delaying the train, despite the seats having far more give (and therefore being more comfortable - despite a low back).

Have to also say that I'm not over keen on the bright lighting and constant announcements as they, also, keep me awake.

I neither actually wrote nor implied, that "making the cushions on the seats that have slightly more give than a park bench improve punctuality". I suggest that you read what is written again, and consider it more carefully.

 

[158722]

387101 moved back to Derby this morning.