Class 387 to GN

[bramling]

They will be remaining in their current livery, which has been deemed as "close enough" to GN colours. GN actually stated in a press release that passengers looking out for the new air conditioned trains should look out for trains with dark green doors. Weirdly enough, the next things we will be repainting will be the soon-to-be-withdrawn 313s as part of their C6 overhaul. Hornsey are apparently equipping themselves with a new painting area specifically for this.

Adam

Judging by the feedback in both my local newspapers, passengers will be looking to *avoid* the trains with the green doors. It seems the reduction in seating, and the hard seats, are both not being well received at all.

 

[class387]

They will be remaining in their current livery, which has been deemed as "close enough" to GN colours. GN actually stated in a press release that passengers looking out for the new air conditioned trains should look out for trains with dark green doors. Weirdly enough, the next things we will be repainting will be the soon-to-be-withdrawn 313s as part of their C6 overhaul. Hornsey are apparently equipping themselves with a new painting area specifically for this.

Adam

Do you have any more details on the 313 overhaul eg. when will it start, when the first will be in service, what will be done?

Agreed that it is strange to invest in units about to be withdrawn.

 

[petersi]

Do you have any more details on the 313 overhaul eg. when will it start, when the first will be in service, what will be done?



Agreed that it is strange to invest in units about to be withdrawn.

May be to do with the lease agreement ?

 

[physics34]

Judging by the feedback in both my local newspapers, passengers will be looking to *avoid* the trains with the green doors. It seems the reduction in seating, and the hard seats, are both not being well received at all.

ha ha, the hard seats of course i can understand, they are not good, as fully explained in loads of places on this forum..... but considering there will be an increase in seats and carriages overall by 2018 the "temporary" reduction should not be a major problem.

 

[387star]

May be to do with the lease agreement ?

they have to repaint them to preserve them

Many look in need of painting

 

[class387]

they have to repaint them to preserve them

Many look in need of painting

Yes, agreed. Knowing GTR I would have just expected them to soldier on as is though.

It's good news anyway.

 

[Class377/5]

They will be remaining in their current livery, which has been deemed as "close enough" to GN colours. GN actually stated in a press release that passengers looking out for the new air conditioned trains should look out for trains with dark green doors. Weirdly enough, the next things we will be repainting will be the soon-to-be-withdrawn 313s as part of their C6 overhaul. Hornsey are apparently equipping themselves with a new painting area specifically for this.

Adam

C6 is miles based exam so if a unit needs to have the work it hasn't to happen or you cannot use it in service. Yes they won't be around much longer afterwards but the choice is do the work or ground the whole fleet.

bizarre that they wont change the door colour. :roll:

How do you propose they paint them? Currently GTR don't have the facilities and sending them away will take up valuable space elsewhere and delay introduction.

Also worth noting the DfT properly thinks it's a wate of money as they units might get redone in the next franchise so other than just looking pretty for a livery that doesn't exist (GN doesn't really have an identity of its own, it's shared with TL). Plus the future operator of the 387 on GN may go various ways in so best to avoid wasting money really.

 

[stut]

The thing about the hard seats baffles me. I find the 387 seats several orders of magnitude more comfortable than a 317. Each to their own, I suppose.

 

[D365]

The thing about the hard seats baffles me. I find the 387 seats several orders of magnitude more comfortable than a 317. Each to their own, I suppose.

I'm not a fan of the Class 317 seats either.

 

[43096]

C6 is miles based exam so if a unit needs to have the work it hasn't to happen or you cannot use it in service.

Are you sure?

C4 exams are mileage based, but C6 bodywork exams are usually time-based.

Page 4 of this document states as much: https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/rolling-stock/links/6yearplan.pdf

 

[Failed Unit]

ha ha, the hard seats of course i can understand, they are not good, as fully explained in loads of places on this forum..... but considering there will be an increase in seats and carriages overall by 2018 the "temporary" reduction should not be a major problem.

I disagree. A reduction in capacity that is going to leave people stood on the platform as they can't physically board is really bad for the railway. Even if it only for 2 years that is lost custom.

 

[D365]

Even if it only for 2 years that is lost custom.

I doubt that there's ever going to be a shortage of passengers on Great Northern or Thameslink, not unless GTR somehow 'do a Southern'.

 

[Failed Unit]

I doubt that there's ever going to be a shortage of passengers on Great Northern or Thameslink, not unless GTR somehow 'do a Southern'.

I agree. GTR may be happy to force some off. (Such as driving away weekend travellers as the are doing at the moment.) many have little choice but to use the train, but if they put off too many the 12 car 700s may be empty.

Unlikely - just proves us customers are an operational inconvenience to GTR.

 

[physics34]

C6 is miles based exam so if a unit needs to have the work it hasn't to happen or you cannot use it in service. Yes they won't be around much longer afterwards but the choice is do the work or ground the whole fleet.



How do you propose they paint them? Currently GTR don't have the facilities and sending them away will take up valuable space elsewhere and delay introduction.

Also worth noting the DfT properly thinks it's a wate of money as they units might get redone in the next franchise so other than just looking pretty for a livery that doesn't exist (GN doesn't really have an identity of its own, it's shared with TL). Plus the future operator of the 387 on GN may go various ways in so best to avoid wasting money really.

Vinyl!

Its for uniformity. The franchise has until 2021. Personally i'd leave the units white and have light grey diagonal stripes at the coach ends..basically the opposite to what the 700s and 365s have. It saves having to paint the whole unit. ..plus of course the blue doors. This can all be vinyl.

.

 

[bramling]

I agree. GTR may be happy to force some off. (Such as driving away weekend travellers as the are doing at the moment.) many have little choice but to use the train, but if they put off too many the 12 car 700s may be empty.

Unlikely - just proves us customers are an operational inconvenience to GTR.

Yep. I think at the moment passengers are relieved when any train of the booked length turns up.

Perhaps I'm unlucky, but no matter what time of day I don't seem to be able to make a journey on GN without some form of cancellation, delay or short-form, and this includes weekdays now. This dire performance is not down to infrastructure issues either.

To be honest it's almost tragic that performance has gone so far down the toilet. Not so long ago the GN route was a superb performer, within the limits of its infrastructure. I've got no time for Govia as an operator. They were rubbish on the original Thameslink franchise, I'm never overly impressed with London Midland, Southern is at rock bottom, and GN seems to be sinking fast.

 

[Skimble19]

How do you propose they paint them? Currently GTR don't have the facilities and sending them away will take up valuable space elsewhere and delay introduction.

Also worth noting the DfT properly thinks it's a wate of money as they units might get redone in the next franchise so other than just looking pretty for a livery that doesn't exist (GN doesn't really have an identity of its own, it's shared with TL). Plus the future operator of the 387 on GN may go various ways in so best to avoid wasting money really.

Well the doors of the 313s are currently being repainted (a nice new coat of FCC pink), and the interiors are being touched up, so clearly we have some kind of paint facility somewhere (presumably in Hornsey).

It's not a major thing but it just yet again makes the whole operation look a bit sloppy and half arsed, a bit like painting half way up the stations, though I suppose we best not go in to that again..!

 

[D365]

It's not a major thing but it just yet again makes the whole operation look a bit sloppy and half arsed, a bit like painting half way up the stations, though I suppose we best not go in to that again..!

Somewhat ironically, it seems as if my local station has just been repainted finally, and they've done quite a nice job of it!

 

[Skimble19]

Somewhat ironically, it seems as if my local station has just been repainted finally, and they've done quite a nice job of it!

The original contractor appears to have been replaced with a couple of others who are doing a considerably better job, although still only going up to a certain height (very inconsistently between stations though oddly).

 

[Class377/5]

Are you sure?

C4 exams are mileage based, but C6 bodywork exams are usually time-based.

Page 4 of this document states as much: https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/rolling-stock/links/6yearplan.pdf

Nope. System shows miles to the exam. I'd rather go off engineering principles than a PR document.

Vinyl!

Its for uniformity. The franchise has until 2021. Personally i'd leave the units white and have light grey diagonal stripes at the coach ends..basically the opposite to what the 700s and 365s have. It saves having to paint the whole unit. ..plus of course the blue doors. This can all be vinyl.

The fact that its deemed as a waste of money to have a form of uniformity is short sighted and is taking your eye off the ball....and besides..the franchise MAKES MONEY.

Viynal won't create a seal like paint does. Plus viynal comes off when you clean off graitti so it's not a sensible solution.

As for shouting the franchise makes money. No it doesn't. Currently Govia is paying more into the franchise than it gets awarded due to peroframce issues. Remember 1000% of money goes straight to the DfT with GTR awarded a pre arranged fee. Hence ALL spending has to be authorised by DfT.

As for making every uniform, what's the point when but the time your finish it'll time to change things? And it's not cheap. Viynal a cost is around £10k a coach and painting is around £15k. Don't forget the Down time for doing this meaning you need to short form trains in order to get them all done. Its not as simple as you make out.

Basic maths here, for the Southern fleet viunalling the whole fleet of 1223 carriages (took the 32x 377 for SE off) would cost £12.2m for viynal or £18.4m for painting. Hardly petty cash. (basic maths too). Note the Thameslink and GN fleets would be a similar number and all that money would be wasted within five years! Can you explain why it's worth spending tens of millions just to make a uniform fleet that will properly require changes at time of completion anyway. And making things uniform is not a justifiable excuse either. Especially when to complete the work (if you could magically start tomorrow and keep the same pace going until the end of the franchise in 2021) would require an extra 6 units a week stopped (technically it's 5.88 units). That's a fair amount.

Well the doors of the 313s are currently being repainted (a nice new coat of FCC pink), and the interiors are being touched up, so clearly we have some kind of paint facility somewhere (presumably in Hornsey).

It's not a major thing but it just yet again makes the whole operation look a bit sloppy and half arsed, a bit like painting half way up the stations, though I suppose we best not go in to that again..!

Full unit painting is not available on GTR, hence why units go elsewhere for it. Door painting along with viunalling or small paint patches are an entirely different concept.

 

[D365]

The original contractor appears to have been replaced with a couple of others who are doing a considerably better job, although still only going up to a certain height (very inconsistently between stations though oddly).

OT but how recently was that? There was a board with the name of the contractors (a Derby-based company) on it at my station, and I don't think that has changed since I last checked.

 

[physics34]

Nope. System shows miles to the exam. I'd rather go off engineering principles than a PR document.



Viynal won't create a seal like paint does. Plus viynal comes off when you clean off graitti so it's not a sensible solution.

As for shouting the franchise makes money. No it doesn't. Currently Govia is paying more into the franchise than it gets awarded due to peroframce issues. Remember 1000% of money goes straight to the DfT with GTR awarded a pre arranged fee. Hence ALL spending has to be authorised by DfT.

As for making every uniform, what's the point when but the time your finish it'll time to change things? And it's not cheap. Viynal a cost is around £10k a coach and painting is around £15k. Don't forget the Down time for doing this meaning you need to short form trains in order to get them all done. Its not as simple as you make out.

Basic maths here, for the Southern fleet viunalling the whole fleet of 1223 carriages (took the 32x 377 for SE off) would cost £12.2m for viynal or £18.4m for painting. Hardly petty cash. (basic maths too). Note the Thameslink and GN fleets would be a similar number and all that money would be wasted within five years! Can you explain why it's worth spending tens of millions just to make a uniform fleet that will properly require changes at time of completion anyway. And making things uniform is not a justifiable excuse either. Especially when to complete the work (if you could magically start tomorrow and keep the same pace going until the end of the franchise in 2021) would require an extra 6 units a week stopped (technically it's 5.88 units). That's a fair amount.



Full unit painting is not available on GTR, hence why units go elsewhere for it. Door painting along with viunalling or small paint patches are an entirely different concept.

Sorry, i meant a uniformity with the GN fleet. I understand the cost factor, and i wouldnt expect the whole GTR fleet to be one livery now, although when the franchise was first mentioned it did seem a good idea, that was before i knew it was the govt that controlled the purse strings. (saying that, many of the early 377/1s and /3s are looking faded in places..and must be due a repaint soon).

Im talking about basic alterations to the 387s to make them look as similar as possible to the GN fleet of 365s.... the idea to vinyl just the doors and some minor detail as i mentioned earlier would not stop the units for a considerable time, and would not cost thousands of pounds per carriage...the result would be two sets of units running on the same routes looking uniform.

Its obvious that a complete repaint or revinyling of the units would not be cost effective considering they are virtually brand new, thats not what ive been talking about.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect the 387s can't be repainted as there'll be a warranty on them. I seem to remember one of the reasons the 365s stayed in Network South East colours for so long after privatisation was because of the paintwork warranty (10 years I think).

 

[MikePJ]

Could someone confirm that the plan for the GN cascade is along these lines?

- 387s come in, initially replacing 321s and 317s on peak trains (happening now)
- at some point in 2017 (when?), the 387s switch to operating the King's Lynn and non-stop Cambridge services, and the former 321/317 peak trains become 365s
- later in 2017 we start to get 700/1s on the hourly semi-fast Cambridge-Royston-Letchworth-KX trains
- sometime in 2018 when the platform lengthening at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton has been done we start to get 700/0s on the Cambridge branch all-stations trains

Sorry if this has been laid out elsewhere, but I've not managed to find it all in one place.

 

[Class377/5]

Could someone confirm that the plan for the GN cascade is along these lines?

- 387s come in, initially replacing 321s and 317s on peak trains (happening now)
- at some point in 2017 (when?), the 387s switch to operating the King's Lynn and non-stop Cambridge services, and the former 321/317 peak trains become 365s
- later in 2017 we start to get 700/1s on the hourly semi-fast Cambridge-Royston-Letchworth-KX trains
- sometime in 2018 when the platform lengthening at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton has been done we start to get 700/0s on the Cambridge branch all-stations trains

Sorry if this has been laid out elsewhere, but I've not managed to find it all in one place.

Bolded bit I believe that's sometime in 2017. Sure it's the Cambridge stoppers that start running to Brighton in May 2018.

 

[petersi]

The Cambridge stopper services were never going to Brighton. I think they going to Maidstone ?

It's the semi fast that are going to Brighton Ie Last stop Royston before Cambridge

 

[Class377/5]

The Cambridge stopper services were never going to Brighton. I think they going to Maidstone ?

It's the semi fast that are going to Brighton Ie Last stop Royston before Cambridge

Sorry your right. In my defence I've just woken up.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the 387s swap the 317 / 321 diagrams like for like then you will see a lot of peak. You are lucky at the moment to see a 365 on the stopping Peterborough/ Cambridge trains.

Someone will correct me but I think the 387s must stay on the morning Cambridge- London workings as the rear set is currently locked out until Royston and further up on the thread it says this arrangement can't be done on the 365s.

So sadly it looks like we are stuck with grossly overcrowded trains until the platforms are extended. The 700s will also be extremely overcrowded- but at least they are designed for it unlike the 387s.

Reading some other post. It implies GTR don't make any money on the franchise because of thier poor performance. My view is they are not penalised enough for their absolute incompetence at ruining great northern. As they have shown no desire to improve.

 

[bramling]

If the 387s swap the 317 / 321 diagrams like for like then you will see a lot of peak. You are lucky at the moment to see a 365 on the stopping Peterborough/ Cambridge trains.

Someone will correct me but I think the 387s must stay on the morning Cambridge- London workings as the rear set is currently locked out until Royston and further up on the thread it says this arrangement can't be done on the 365s.

So sadly it looks like we are stuck with grossly overcrowded trains until the platforms are extended. The 700s will also be extremely overcrowded- but at least they are designed for it unlike the 387s.

Reading some other post. It implies GTR don't make any money on the franchise because of thier poor performance. My view is they are not penalised enough for their absolute incompetence at ruining great northern. As they have shown no desire to improve.

This all seems broadly right.

Initially the 321s are being replaced. However this is not necessarily being done directly, for example the latest diagram to go over replaced 2x317 in the morning, and 2x365 in the evening, the displaced 317s and 365s then moving to what were 321 diagrams. The next stage will be to replace 317s.

Presumably somewhere along the line there will then be a shuffle round to put the 387s onto the faster Cambridge/Kings Lynn diagrams, with the slower diagrams then going over to 365s. Obviously things will have to be arranged to take into account the need for SDO on the three morning services.

 

[crazystripe]

Can anyone provide an update on which diagrams will be next to transfer over to 387s, and the timing of the remaining 387 units cascading onto GN.
I'm particularly interested in the 1813 to PBO ex KX, currently a 12-car 321 service.

 

[D365]

I'm particularly interested in the 1813 to PBO ex KX, currently a 12-car 321 service.

Ooooh, that's one I sometimes travel on. Normally empties out quickly north of Hitchin.