Class 365s: Debranding and withdrawal has started

[MML]

Keeping the full 365 fleet on GN and moving 387 fleet back to MML for the Corby services would be a good idea.
Fast 12-car stock for the half-hourly Corby to St Pancras, and improved passenger satisfaction (more seats) on the GN particularly if the 365 were given a refurbishment and refresh while surplus units are available.

 

[D365]

The GN 387s are not being replaced. The primary motivation for their introduction is their SDO facility.

 

[chubs]

Its going to take a lot of money and new coaches to replace such a large fleet and although maybe people think the interiors are getting tired operational wise i still think there holding there own the amount of diagrams and services they run they must have a good few years left even on south east london services.

It's been done before when those ghastly slammers were finally banished to the razor blade factory (long after they should have been), I was always so happy to see a 375 roll in rtaher than a horrid slammer.

And it's being done right now on GA.

 

[A0]

Agree with this. They were lovely trains to ride in before the "dumbing down". The carpets and the 2 x 2 seating with tables directly in line with the windows gave them the feel of a proper railway carriage. The vinyl may have made them easier to clean and more airline type seating enabled the operator to pack more passengers in but they weren't the same. As always, passenger comfort was the last consideration.

A grubby stained carpet vs clean lino.

Fewer seats grouped around table vs more airline style seats.

I suspect for many commuters not looking at a grubby carpet and a better chance of getting a seat is viewed as an improvement.

On the airline seats the same comments were made about GW HSTs - yet commuters preferred them as there were more seats.

 

[A0]

Keeping the full 365 fleet on GN and moving 387 fleet back to MML for the Corby services would be a good idea.
Fast 12-car stock for the half-hourly Corby to St Pancras, and improved passenger satisfaction (more seats) on the GN particularly if the 365 were given a refurbishment and refresh while surplus units are available.

The soon to be available 379s would be more logical - they very similar and there's 30 of them which ought to be sufficient to cover the Corbys in 8 car formations.

 

[Mikey C]

And maintenance of yet another small unique fleet would be the last thing that SE want (There is talk within the new rolling stock manufacturers that the SE franchise will have a new completely standard fleet - with minor interior variations - across Metro and Mainline ousting all Networkers and Electrostars)

Replacing the Electrostars as well? Unless there's an obvious place for them to go to, how can replacing such modern trains be justified?

 

[Class465fan]

All this money being wasted on replacing reliable trains (that are still young as well) is just plain stupid.

 

[D365]

All this money being wasted on replacing reliable trains (that are still young as well) is just plain stupid.

Take it you didn’t read my comment above...

 

[Class465fan]

Take it you didn’t read my comment above...

I was talking about the SE electrostars/networkers that might be replaced by new trains. Like I said If that happens then that would be plain stupid as they're still reliable trains.

 

[D365]

I was talking about the SE electrostars/networkers that might be replaced by new trains. Like I said If that happens then that would be plain stupid as they're still reliable trains.

Right. I didn’t see the posts above yours (ironically) - but that’s got nowt to do with the 365s or Great Northern.

 

[Class 317722]

Perhaps c2c might have some until the new trains arrive.

 

[59CosG95]

Perhaps c2c might have some until the new trains arrive.

No need; the 6 387/3s are already doing that. Chances are the 387s will then go to GWR once the new c2c Aventras arrive.

 

[D365]

No need; the 6 387/3s are already doing that. Chances are the 387s will then go to GWR once the new c2c Aventras arrive.

They have confirmed that they are seeking additional temporary stock until the Aventras.

 

[bramling]

A grubby stained carpet vs clean lino.

Fewer seats grouped around table vs more airline style seats.

I suspect for many commuters not looking at a grubby carpet and a better chance of getting a seat is viewed as an improvement.

On the airline seats the same comments were made about GW HSTs - yet commuters preferred them as there were more seats.

Please can I reiterate the point that changing the seat layout on the 365s *did not* create more seats. All it did was allow two rows on each side to have a slight increase in legroom, thus presumably meeting the requirements for priority seats - which then duly become priority in the sense that they’re now quick to fill when regulars suss it out (and it’s amazing how regulars notice these little things). For everyone else it just creates squabbles when two groups turn up at the same time wanting one table, or a group turn up expecting someone to move from a table seat “because we have a God-given right to sit together but couldn’t be bothered to turn up before the last moment”.

As for the vinyl flooring, any idea of it looking clean and tidy is utopian. In reality most of the time it appears pretty filthy. The carpet looked more presentable, and given that it lasted about a decade one can’t say it didn’t pay for itself.

 

[bramling]

It's been done before when those ghastly slammers were finally banished to the razor blade factory (long after they should have been), I was always so happy to see a 375 roll in rtaher than a horrid slammer.

And it's being done right now on GA.

You are entitled to your views on the quality of the slammers, however the likes of the VEPs and later CIGs were certainly not replaced after their sell-by date. Many were actually rather young in EMU terms. The class 312 even more so.

 

[A0]

You are entitled to your views on the quality of the slammers, however the likes of the VEPs and later CIGs were certainly not replaced after their sell-by date. Many were actually rather young in EMU terms. The class 312 even more so.

The 312s were unfortunate in that they were the last of the Mk1/Mk2 EMUs. They were quite 'old fashioned' in having slam doors and lots of them. The PEPs showed the way forward as, a year or so later, did the 317s.

The problem was that access regulations changed, which you could never have made the 312s compliant for. Arguably the 312s shouldn't have been built and the 317s brought forward.

 

[59CosG95]

They have confirmed that they are seeking additional temporary stock until the Aventras.

Perhaps the ex-Heathrow Connect 360/2s? If two of them were coupled up together, that gives them a 10-car formation (which, AIUI, the new Aventras will be). 365s/ex-LNW 350/2s/ex-GA 360s are also possibilities, but I suppose we'd better wait with bated breath for what c2c will take.

 

[chubs]

You are entitled to your views on the quality of the slammers, however the likes of the VEPs and later CIGs were certainly not replaced after their sell-by date. Many were actually rather young in EMU terms. The class 312 even more so.

They surpassed their life expiration date by 20 odd years.

It was quite funny watching the faces of people who hadn't been to kent in a while boarding the clapped out junk thinking they had gone back in time, then spending 2 hours bouncing around in a noisy drafty carriage with no working PA.

Even a 375/9 was better than that old junk.

 

[physics34]

They surpassed their life expiration date by 20 odd years.

It was quite funny watching the faces of people who hadn't been to kent in a while boarding the clapped out junk thinking they had gone back in time, then spending 2 hours bouncing around in a noisy drafty carriage with no working PA.

Even a 375/9 was better than that old junk.

Wash your mouth out lol

 

[Deepgreen]

They surpassed their life expiration date by 20 odd years.

It was quite funny watching the faces of people who hadn't been to kent in a while boarding the clapped out junk thinking they had gone back in time, then spending 2 hours bouncing around in a noisy drafty carriage with no working PA.

Even a 375/9 was better than that old junk.

That's odd - rolling stock is generally designed with a 40 year life in mind. The VEPs and CIGs were built around 1963 - 1970. The last were withdrawn in 2005. How does that square with your claim that they were 20 years past their "life expiration date"?

Draughty they may have been, but far more likely to be able to run in icy weather than the oh-so-delicate 'Electrostars'.

 

[Wivenswold]

They surpassed their life expiration date by 20 odd years.

It was quite funny watching the faces of people who hadn't been to kent in a while boarding the clapped out junk thinking they had gone back in time, then spending 2 hours bouncing around in a noisy drafty carriage with no working PA.

Even a 375/9 was better than that old junk.

The slamdoors did a perfectly good job and are still missed by the commuters who used them. Quite the contrary to your comment, they were lovely and warm in the winter, drafty for the right reasons in the summer. They had to go because times change but junk they were not.

 

[43096]

The slamdoors did a perfectly good job and are still missed by the commuters who used them. Quite the contrary to your comment, they were lovely and warm in the winter, drafty for the right reasons in the summer. They had to go because times change but junk they were not.

Wrong way round, at least with the VEPs. Cold and draughty in winter and stifling hot in summer. Utterly hateful things - the advent of the various Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros was a massive improvement. Anyone who says otherwise is just indulging in rose-tinted nostalgia rather than any practical view of how it really was.

 

[43096]

Draughty they may have been, but far more likely to be able to run in icy weather than the oh-so-delicate 'Electrostars'.

Oh they would run in icy weather. But then afterwards they would all be sat on depot with burnt out resistor grids as a result, with multiple short-forms and cancellations. Not so clever, then.

 

[brel york]

The 312s were unfortunate in that they were the last of the Mk1/Mk2 EMUs. They were quite 'old fashioned' in having slam doors and lots of them. The PEPs showed the way forward as, a year or so later, did the 317s.

The problem was that access regulations changed, which you could never have made the 312s compliant for. Arguably the 312s shouldn't have been built and the 317s brought forward.

The 317 couldn’t be brought forward as the bodyshell issues hadn’t been worked out , the prototype bodyshells being the class 210 , 312 production started in 1975 and last ones delivered in 1978 , the last pep stock (315) were done by 1981 just as 317 started .
Building the 508 as 4 car shows there actually was a plan as these were delivered to southern region until the 455 were ready

 

[chubs]

Wrong way round, at least with the VEPs. Cold and draughty in winter and stifling hot in summer. Utterly hateful things - the advent of the various Junipers, Electrostars and Desiros was a massive improvement. Anyone who says otherwise is just indulging in rose-tinted nostalgia rather than any practical view of how it really was.

Yep - this was my recollection of the nasty vep/cep/cig/crap too.

I don't remember anybody pining for them when the superior in every way electrostars replaced them.

Who says they have to last 40-50 years just to make enthusiasts happy? They were severely outdated in every way, and shouldn't have lasted as long as they did.

 

[bramling]

Yep - this was my recollection of the nasty vep/cep/cig/crap too.

I don't remember anybody pining for them when the superior in every way electrostars replaced them.

Who says they have to last 40-50 years just to make enthusiasts happy? They were severely outdated in every way, and shouldn't have lasted as long as they did.

An EMU should be looking at lasting 40 years in order to make the people who paid for them happy - i.e. the taxpayer and the farepayer.

 

[brel york]

Good point , again people think they have some right to brand new stock

 

[jon0844]

An EMU should be looking at lasting 40 years in order to make the people who paid for them happy - i.e. the taxpayer and the farepayer.

It's often those that moan about high fares and wasting money that manage to include 'old trains' in their anti rail rants.

I suspect they don't even notice the irony.

 

[brel york]

Unlike a lot on here I actually work in the industry first hand and see the waste I agree life expired trains need to go

 

[thedbdiboy]

That's odd - rolling stock is generally designed with a 40 year life in mind. The VEPs and CIGs were built around 1963 - 1970. The last were withdrawn in 2005. How does that square with your claim that they were 20 years past their "life expiration date"?

The last VEPs were built in 1974, and the final slam door SR stock was a new build of REP power cars built at York alongside Mk3s in 1975. The book life was indeed 35 years but to be frank they were obsolete the day they rolled off the production line. Rugged and reliable, but not an ordinary customer's idea of a modern train vehicle.