Class 365s: Debranding and withdrawal has started

[brel york]

Some of them were rebuilds too but br had to work within budgetary restraints. Only the mk 3 Coach was under way in 1974 and the only thing they share with a mk 3 emu vehicle is the roof sheeting , the pillars , solebar floor closure panels etc are different, the problem was cutting a doorway at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing s without losing the structural integrity of the shell

 

[brel york]

And no mk 3 were under way at york until the first 317

 

[Marklund]

An EMU should be looking at lasting 40 years in order to make the people who paid for them happy - i.e. the taxpayer and the farepayer.

I agree that was the case, but we are in different times, whether we like it or not.
Financing and maintenance efficiencies are drivers which were never there to the extent they are now.

And this isn't just the rail industry. Easyjet 737s no more than 8 year old ended up parted out because they were expensive to operate compared with more efficient models.

If the Lease Co can't make money on it, it's gone.

 

[brel york]

If someone wants them they will keep them , leasing a 737 is no comparison to a bargain basement 142-150 , some of these units will have returned the initial investment many times over .

 

[Marklund]

If someone wants them they will keep them , leasing a 737 is no comparison to a bargain basement 142-150 , some of these units will have returned the initial investment many times over .

IF.
And hence the reason if it's made it's money back, and been written down to a zero value, then it's the costs that drive it.

Scrap makes money.
Storage costs money.
Selling to a competitor could reduce income on other assets.

And the comparison between a initially planned 40 year service life asset 365, with a 30 year planned service life 737 is valid.
Why you brought diesels in to a thread about electrics is a mystery.

 

[brel york]

IF.
And hence the reason if it's made it's money back, and been written down to a zero value, then it's the costs that drive it.

Scrap makes money.
Storage costs money.
Selling to a competitor could reduce income on other assets.

And the comparison between a initially planned 40 year service life asset 365, with a 30 year planned service life 737 is valid.
Why you brought diesels in to a thread about electrics is a mystery.

Electric aeroplanes lol

 

[brel york]

It’s this attitude that rosco want to scrap trains , they don’t I work closely with one , I’ve been in meetings with the M.D. of one , they like to make money and while someone wants to lease their units they will keep them

 

[Marklund]

It’s this attitude that rosco want to scrap trains , they don’t I work closely with one , I’ve been in meetings with the M.D. of one , they like to make money and while someone wants to lease their units they will keep them

I'll just quote myself again for your hard of thinking.

If the Lease Co can't make money on it, it's gone.

There. That's not difficult now, is it?

 

[D365]

End of the day, the BR units were sold to the ROSCOs at bargain basement prices, so it’s their problem whether they are able to flog them or not.

 

[brel york]

I'll just quote myself again for your hard of thinking.



There. That's not difficult now, is it?

Where are these

 

[brel york]

As a frequent visitor to Eastleigh there appears no rush to send stock to mr booths ,

 

[Marklund]

Where are these what?

If you mean electric trains, we're not at the stage of cutting yet, the 442s earned a reprieve, but lets see what happens to the Electric Networker fleet in the short future.
LH Mark 3s have though as a warning to use or lose.

 

[bramling]

End of the day, the BR units were sold to the ROSCOs at bargain basement prices, so it’s their problem whether they are able to flog them or not.

Whatever way one looks at it someone is paying for all these new trains, in an industry where costs are renowned to be poorly controlled in some sectors. The trains are not being built, tested, commissioned and staff trained for free.

I can understand that there may well be a viable case for replacing DC motored stock on the basis that it does have a costly maintenance regime and is now at the point where modern packages are regarded as more reliable. I could even add the 365 to this, just about, on the basis that it too has an obsolete traction package - although as a modern modular train retractioning should be fairly easy and cheap to do.

However any idea about replacing stock like 357s or Southeastern Electrostars in my view is totally bonkers unless there’s a defined set of old stock which they will be cascaded to replace, and as far as I can see there simply isn’t. Unless of course an export market develops, and I simply can’t see that taking off for EMUs.

Things only make sense if there’s a mass amount of electrification due to come on stream within about 5 years, and whilst this boat did at one point look like it was about to sail, it’s now firmly back in the port.

Things are even more crazy if demand does tail off in the next few years , which it does seem we are seeing some indications that could at least be a possibility.

Perhaps the undesired class 700s could be exported and replaced with 12-car ex Southeastern Electrostars? Now they have a nice interior which matches even the much-loved 365s!

 

[D365]

We haven’t seen the mass replacement fleets come on stream yet, the first of these is the Class 720 and 745/755. The only units cascaded from Thameslink that haven’t been rehomed so far are a small number of the Class 319s.

 

[Marklund]

We haven’t seen the mass replacement fleets come on stream yet, the first of these is the Class 720 and 745/755. The only units cascaded from Thameslink that haven’t been rehomed so far are a small number of the Class 319s.

I was about to add 319s that have been mass replaced, but not all have found use.
You could add the 4th car of the 321s outside a certain someone's office that have been butchered to the list of goners.

The big question is the Networkers. And this is a thread about the future of some of them...

If brel york knows where they are going once displaced, we could just end the speculation of what is happening to them now.
Will they get 40 years planned life from them?
Who knows, but in the times we are, when homogenization, and running and leasing costs are more important, we shouldn't be surprised if they don't make it to 40.

 

[bramling]

I was about to add 319s that have been mass replaced, but not all have found use.
You could add the 4th car of the 321s outside a certain someone's office that have been butchered to the list of goners.

The big question is the Networkers. And this is a thread about the future of some of them...

If brel york knows where they are going once displaced, we could just end the speculation of what is happening to them now.
Will they get 40 years planned life from them?
Who knows, but in the times we are, when homogenization, and running and leasing costs are more important, we shouldn't be surprised if they don't make it to 40.

When we discuss Networkers, it’s important to draw a distinction between the 365 and 465. The 465s are rather less reliable, not in such a good state, and being DC only have little hope of finding further use as they will likely be the oldest DC trains on the system when, or if, replacement comes - perhaps excepting a couple of special cases like the 442s.

The 365 is a different case. They are a modern, largely accessibility compliant EMU which offers good all-round performance. At this precise moment this is still a bit of a gap in the market, although that may not last for long. They have a much better chance of someone looking at them and concluding further leasing is at least a possibility. The fleet size of 40 is still reasonably large. Likewise the similar 323s also offer some desirable selling points. They would be absolutely perfect for electrified Cardiff valley lines for example.

 

[Marklund]

When we discuss Networkers, it’s important to draw a distinction between the 365 and 465. The 465s are rather less reliable, not in such a good state, and being DC only have little hope of finding further use as they will likely be the oldest DC trains on the system when, or if, replacement comes - perhaps excepting a couple of special cases like the 442s.

The 365 is a different case. They are a modern, largely accessibility compliant EMU which offers good all-round performance. At this precise moment this is still a bit of a gap in the market, although that may not last for long. They have a much better chance of someone looking at them and concluding further leasing is at least a possibility. The fleet size of 40 is still reasonably large. Likewise the similar 323s also offer some desirable selling points. They would be absolutely perfect for electrified Cardiff valley lines for example.

Absolutely, but do remember the Valley Lines have been mooted for two other 2nd hand fleets already.
It's all speculation, and cascading to newly electrified secondary and tertiary routes happened before with long paid off 305s and 308s amongst others.

Lets see if the ac Networkers are snapped up before displaced AGA 321s if/when the valleys get wired.

 

[hwl]

All this money being wasted on replacing reliable trains (that are still young as well) is just plain stupid.

Networkers aren't reliable compared to any other 3rd rail stock apart from the Southern 313s (which are still better). The most unreliable of the 455s /456s /Electrostars /458s /444s /450s are currently still about 5 times more reliable than the Brush-Hitachi /0 &/1s which are in-turn more reliable than the GEC-Alstom /2s /9s and 466s.

Why do you think they are reliable?

 

[D365]

And as I’ve mentioned before, 365s require more work to clear on new routes, compared to something like a 317, 319 or 321. Which is part of the reason why they were concentrated on the Great Northern.

 

[hwl]

No one said they're to be replaced in the next franchise. And it would be rather silly to replace the networkers as they're still getting their PRM mods done.

The SE franchise ITT has a metro stock specification and the networkers don't meet it and won't unless an obscene amount is spent on them (the biggest item being chopping out larger door frames in 25+year old Aluminium bodyshells which isn't likely to happen)

 

[hwl]

Apart from the fact that they are no longer route cleared for DC operation and would require significant investment to regain this and the equipment to enable them to operate on DC, does not exist and would, again, require significant investment to produce (and I'd not be certain that doing this would open the door to having to comply with current standards as any grandfather rights would be null and void).

And they couldn't keep 465/9 timings when they got closer to London. And why would 465/9's want to come back to Metro as they leave you short of seats to plan every time you run a /9 vice /0/1/2.

And maintenance of yet another small unique fleet would be the last thing that SE want (There is talk within the new rolling stock manufacturers that the SE franchise will have a new completely standard fleet - with minor interior variations - across Metro and Mainline ousting all Networkers and Electrostars)

Part of the problem with the SE Networkers is that there are too many seats causing dwell time and capacity issues. The future is fewer seats, larger vestibules, wider corridors and SDO.

Completely new standard fleet:
The 465s, 466s, 376s don't meet the metro stock spec but 375s effectively meet longer distance stock spec.
The 376s could be modified but no realistic chance for the networkers so replacement of the networker fleet is on the cards but replacement of the long distance fleet isn't required unless it makes sense for the bidders (i.e. lower leasing cost and or higher reliability or something other features to win DfT quality points).

 

[bramling]

And as I’ve mentioned before, 365s require more work to clear on new routes, compared to something like a 317, 319 or 321. Which is part of the reason why they were concentrated on the Great Northern.

...but they do offer a much better passenger experience, and crucially they better meet accessibility requirements *now*, which is potentially a big-ticket issue.

I’m still placing a small bet that GN ends up with more than 19 in the longer term. How about 30 with the rest stripped for spares?

 

[hwl]

...but they do offer a much better passenger experience, and crucially they better meet accessibility requirements *now*, which is potentially a big-ticket issue.

I’m still placing a small bet that GN ends up with more than 19 in the longer term. How about 30 with the rest stripped for spares?

Units with better acceleration might open up some timetabling opportunities especially on the ECML pinch points.

 

[D365]

...but they do offer a much better passenger experience, and crucially they better meet accessibility requirements *now*, which is potentially a big-ticket issue.

I’m still placing a small bet that GN ends up with more than 19 in the longer term. How about 30 with the rest stripped for spares?

I think the deciding factor of their future will be whether the expense of clearing 20-odd AC units [that are relatively unique] can be justified, compared to something like a 319 which is simpler mechanically, and has an ongoing modification programme of its own.

I don’t think they will be cascaded, personally, unless GN somehow ends up with the 379s.

Units with better acceleration might open up some timetabling opportunities especially on the ECML pinch points.

Which may have been another justification for introducing the 387s, but I would have to check the traction data to see whether there is indeed any significant improvement over the 365.

 

[JohnElliott]

That's odd - rolling stock is generally designed with a 40 year life in mind. The VEPs and CIGs were built around 1963 - 1970. The last were withdrawn in 2005. How does that square with your claim that they were 20 years past their "life expiration date"?

I'm sure I've seen suggestions on other threads that the Mk1s had a design life of 20 years for the bodywork and 40 for the chassis -- so the intention would have been to replace the body at the 20 year point. There were a couple of prototypes to that effect (one with a Pacer / Leyland body, and the Networker Classic).

 

[Ianno87]

Which may have been another justification for introducing the 387s, but I would have to check the traction data to see whether there is indeed any significant improvement over the 365.

Riding 387s regularly on fast Cambridge runs, I'm convinced they're faster than 365s by at least a clear minute to/from King's Cross, possibly two minutes.

 

[bramling]

I think the deciding factor of their future will be whether the expense of clearing 20-odd AC units [that are relatively unique] can be justified, compared to something like a 319 which is simpler mechanically, and has an ongoing modification programme of its own.

I don’t think they will be cascaded, personally, unless GN somehow ends up with the 379s.



Which may have been another justification for introducing the 387s, but I would have to check the traction data to see whether there is indeed any significant improvement over the 365.

I’ve been doing some GPS timing out of curiosity. Not enough to be conclusive as I try to avoid 387s where I can, but I can’t see much difference between the two. The speed profile seems almost identical. There seems to be a slight benefit of 387s on stopping services, but minimal. The 387s may well be slightly better in poor adhesion, especially if running as a 4 car.

387s could have a benefit if they ever get allowed to do 110 mph. But as always the main limiting factor on GN is fitting in around other services, especially if things run off book or out of path. Catching up with late running 313s somewhere is the worst thing in my experience!

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve been doing some GPS timing out of curiosity. Not enough to be conclusive as I try to avoid 387s where I can, but I can’t see much difference between the two. The speed profile seems almost identical. There seems to be a slight benefit of 387s on stopping services, but minimal. The 387s may well be slightly better in poor adhesion, especially if running as a 4 car.

387s could have a benefit if they ever get allowed to do 110 mph. But as always the main limiting factor on GN is fitting in around other services, especially if things run off book or out of path. Catching up with late running 313s somewhere is the worst thing in my experience!

I reckon (through feeling through my backside rather than scientific timing) 387s keep acceleration going better through higher speeds than 365s, and there can be a bit of variation depending on how 'agressive' drivers are with braking and acceleration. Drivers can drive very differently, particulatly approaching Hitchin on the flashing yellows, and braking for Shepreth Branch Jn on the Down.

I've worked out the benefit of 110mph to be c. 45 seconds on the Up (Hitchin South to Potters Bar) and c. 60 seconds on the Down (Barnet Tunnel to Hitchin).