Class 365 - are they leaving Govia Thameslink Railway?

[adrock1976]

I've tried scrolling though a few pages but cannot find a dedicated thread.

As the Class 700s are gradually starting to come on stream along with the transfer of Class 387s on Great Northern Railway metals, are all of the 40 Class 365s going to be withdrawn?

Furthermore, do I recall that they (Class 365s) would have been transferred to Great Western Railway instead of the Class 319s, but will be new build Class 387s instead, or this a construct in my mind for some strange reason?

 

[jopsuk]

19 or 20 365s are to remain at GN, running peak time services into Kings Cross from (as I understand) Peterborough and Royston (and others?) which otherwise will have only TL services off-peak

 

[D365]

19 or 20 365s are to remain at GN, running peak time services into Kings Cross from (as I understand) Peterborough and Royston (and others?) which otherwise will have only TL services off-peak

Sounds about right. 19 were planned to remain, but with no confirmed destination for the remaining 21 and plenty newer EMUs on the market too, they could well end up staying?

And there hasn't been much talk about the Class 365s recently so it should be fine starting a new discussion. Though the title should, as always, be a little more descriptive.

 

[physics34]

there must be plans for them...... what a waste if not. Southeastern surely the best destination for them although they will have more spare stock when the 700s and Thameslink full timetable start properly.

 

[Kite159]

They would have been better than 319s for Northern.

 

[D365]

They would have been better than 319s for Northern.

And what would Great Northern have done in the meantime (i.e. 2015-18)?

 

[43074]

In an ideal world maybe 5 or so extra 8-car 700s should have been built and the 21 365s going off lease would be kept with the other 19 at Great Northern, giving them the equivalent of 50 4-car trains, meaning no 387s would have been required at GN at all.

Back in the real world DfT will be paying for the storage of the trains until a further use can be found, while less comfortable trains (in my opinion) are used on GN services.

Furthermore, do I recall that they (Class 365s) would have been transferred to Great Western Railway instead of the Class 319s, but will be new build Class 387s instead, or this a construct in my mind for some strange reason?

That was the plan about 18 months ago, but things have changed quite dramatically since then.

 

[Kite159]

And what would Great Northern have done in the meantime (i.e. 2015-18)?

Have 319s instead

The regulars would have approved as they have 3+2 seating to allow more passengers to have a seat during the peaks

 

[D365]

In an ideal world maybe 5 or so extra 8-car 700s should have been built and the 21 365s going off lease would be kept with the other 19 at Great Northern, giving them the equivalent of 50 4-car trains, meaning no 387s would have been required at GN at all.

Would that have been enough to operate the Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts?

Have 319s instead

Was determined to be uneconomical for only three years use, when ScotRail wanted to pinch the Class 321s.

 

[43074]

Would that have been enough to operate the Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts?

I don't see why not, the plan at the moment is for 50 4-car trains, but with 29 387s and 21 365s instead.

 

[chubs]

I'm a bit disappointed they aren't all being replaced as well, they look pretty dated now.

 

[D365]

I'm a bit disappointed they aren't all being replaced as well, they look pretty dated now.

In what sense?

 

[chubs]

In what sense?

That when you step into them they look straight out of the 80's. They're quite a clunky unit, compared to the smoother curves of electrostars and such.

The last refurbishment did help a bit.

 

[D365]

Sure you're not getting mixed up with the Class 317s or 321s? I don't really much of a difference between the 365s and later Bombardier units.

 

[jopsuk]

Air conditioning has been a long term ask of the Fen Line Users Association.

It's hard to see where the 365s end up- most potential users would likely, as long as leasing costs are suitable, take 360s or 379s (newer, air conditioned, units- the latter with power sockets and wifi fited).

 

[Hadders]

That when you step into them they look straight out of the 80's. They're quite a clunky unit, compared to the smoother curves of electrostars and such.

The last refurbishment did help a bit.

Blimey. Did you know the 365s were built in the mid-1990s?

They are excellent trains:
2+2 seating throughout, reasonably comfortable
Decent mix of bays and airline seats
Table back seats, appropriate tables in the bays allowing passengers that allow speedy entry/exit
Appropriate 1st class provision
Good heating
Smiley face on the front

There is no doubt that the recent refurbishment was a dumbing-down to get us ready for the 700s. In my opinion it's not wearing well either:

Replacement of carpet interiors with vinyl which is generally filthy with ingrained dirt
Installation of harsher lighting
Removal of half of the bay seats in favour of more airline seats (but ni increase in overall seating provision)

Just how was this better?

 

[Hadders]

Air conditioning has been a long term ask of the Fen Line Users Association.

I get this but travelling on 387s recently that have air conditioning I found it quite uncomfortable and hot. On a 365 you simply open the window!

I know most of my 365 journeys are on the 'fasts' between Stevenage and Kings Cross rather than a stopping lower speed service but it is quite nice on a hot day with all the windows open at 100mph on the fasts

 

[adrock1976]

there must be plans for them...... what a waste if not. Southeastern surely the best destination for them although they will have more spare stock when the 700s and Thameslink full timetable start properly.

Something that puzzles me with your comment regarding transferring them to Southeastern.

The Southeastern and the London, Chatham, & Dover Railway metals is electrified with 750v DC third rail. The Class 365s are designed for 25kV AC overhead. Although I believe the bodyshell of the Class 365s are similar to the Class 465s and 466s, I don't know if it is at all possible 9or even worthwhile) to install shoegear on the 365s.

 

[Hadders]

The 365s are dual voltage. Some of the units used to work south of the Thames when they were first built. All of them moved to WAGN (as was) in the early 2000s.

 

[bramling]

Air conditioning has been a long term ask of the Fen Line Users Association.

It's hard to see where the 365s end up- most potential users would likely, as long as leasing costs are suitable, take 360s or 379s (newer, air conditioned, units- the latter with power sockets and wifi fited).

Makes me laugh - now the 387 have arrived complete with air-conditioning, people are moaning that the trains are too stuffy, such that the (emergency) windows on the 387s are being broken open. Maybe the Kings Lynn lot will be different to the Welwyn lot. One way or the other, there will be complaints come May when people who get a seat today suddenly find they don't.

 

[D365]

One way or the other, there will be complaints come May when people who get a seat today suddenly find they don't.

What, that much of a seat drop from 2x 387 compared to 1x 365?

 

[bramling]

What, that much of a seat drop from 2x 387 compared to 1x 365?

According to the diagrams I've seen, and unless anything has changed since I looked, this May's timetable sees no lengthening on key services. I have been through M-F and I can't see any busy services being lengthened, haven't had time to look through weekends yet. Most of the small handful of extra rolling stock seems to be being used to provide the extra mileage to Cambridge North and Ely at various times.

(The good news is that many users of the non-Kings Lynn services will see their service change from 387 to 365, thus returning the seats that have been stolen from them since the 387s made their dubious debut).

 

[ScotGG]

I havn't read all the way through but I wonder how many suggestions of sending them to Southeastern popped up.

They have no SDO which is needed for 12-car running on Metro routes. Mid-to long distance are getting 377s. SE Metro has seen 90% of the obstacles to 12-car running overcome the past 5 years at a cost of millions. It needs stock with SDO to enable it - work on signals and some stations but it isn't that expensive to do. Surely having 365s without SDO is not the answer, unless all Networkers get SDO.

 

[bramling]

I havn't read all the way through but I wonder how many suggestions of sending them to Southeastern popped up.

They have no SDO which is needed for 12-car running on Metro routes. Mid-to long distance are getting 377s. SE Metro has seen 90% of the obstacles to 12-car running overcome the past 5 years at a cost of millions. It needs stock with SDO to enable it - work on signals and some stations but it isn't that expensive to do. Surely having 365s without SDO is not the answer, unless all Networkers get SDO.

The ideal solution for Southeastern is to find some acceptable solution which engineers out the short platforms. It's one thing relying on SDO for quite rural stations, but it's a very bad way to go on busy intensive commuter lines.

I'd lay a small wager that a decade from now, if the GN 365 fleet hasn't been replaced by something else, there will be a number greater than 19 on there. Time will tell. Personally I'm glad there doesn't seem to be a use lined up for the surplus units at the present time - we need them ready and available for GN when the Thameslink Programme becomes politically untenable and 'something needs to be done'.

 

[muddythefish]

Always thought the pre-refurbishment 365s were one of the best trains on the whole railway. Very comfy, well laid out, smooth ride, nice ambience. Then they went and took the carpets out and ruined them.

 

[Hadders]

Always thought the pre-refurbishment 365s were one of the best trains on the whole railway. Very comfy, well laid out, smooth ride, nice ambience. Then they went and took the carpets out and ruined them.

Well quite. A downgrade so that the 700s appear like an improvement when they appear.

I'll bet that most of the 700s we see on the GN will be 8-car services with the 12-cars being for the 'historical' Thameslink route.

An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365
A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365

We are getting an increase in Off Peak frequencies (which is very welcome) but what no-one has managed to tell me yet is how many additional services will run in the peak. I suspect none as there's no paths so the result will be fewer, more uncomfortable seats in the peak but more room for people to stand.

 

[muddythefish]

Well quite. A downgrade so that the 700s appear like an improvement when they appear.

I'll bet that most of the 700s we see on the GN will be 8-car services with the 12-cars being for the 'historical' Thameslink route.

An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365
A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365

We are getting an increase in Off Peak frequencies (which is very welcome) but what no-one has managed to tell me yet is how many additional services will run in the peak. I suspect none as there's no paths so the result will be fewer, more uncomfortable seats in the peak but more room for people to stand.

What is the off-peak increase ? I used to travel from Huntingdon regularly and could never understand why Pboro only got 2 trains an hour while Cambridge got 3 or 4. The Sunday service was poor too - only 1 train an hour.

 

[Hadders]

I don't know about Huntingdon but from Stevenage we currently get:

2 'fast' Finsbury Park and Kings Cross (1 ex-Cambridge, 1 ex-Peterborough)
2 'semi-fast' Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park, Kings Cross (1-ex-Cambridge, 1 ex-Peterborough)
1 Moorgate via Hertford.

As I understand it this will become:

4 fast (3 ex-Cambridge, 1 ex-Peterborough)
2 semi fast (1 ex-Cambridge, 1 ex-Cambridge)
2 Moorgate via Hertford (bustituted north of Watton at Stone until a new platform is built at Stevenage)

I might not have the split between Cambridge and Peterborough correct. I seem to remember from GTR's consultation that journeys from, say, Knebworth to Huntingdon will require a change at Stevenage with a wait between 8 and 23 minutes!

The additional services generally have to do to Cambridge as there's no paths to run additional services to Peterborough. I know it doesn't help Huntingdon but Peterborough does get VTEC services.

 

[D365]

Hitchin-Peterborough will see the same service frequency as present. So the all-day 2tph will be taken over by the Class 700s, with the 2tph peak fasts making use of the Class 365s as at present.

 

[jopsuk]

(swinging off topic) but the off peak TL (subject to final approval, but the GN side has been pretty fixed for ages, it's what they match to south of the river that has changed) is to be:
2x Cambridge Semi Fast, 12 car
2x Cambridge Stopper, 8 car
2x Peterborough, 12 car