Class 365 - are they leaving Govia Thameslink Railway?

[bramling]

Not to mention, far far better than the Class 317 seats. And they finally have prominent luggage storage facilities.

The luggage stacks on the 387s are inferior to the 365s. Each one takes up two seats whereas the 365 ones don't, and the 365 ones are also slightly bigger. At busy times the 387 luggage stacks are normally occupied by people. I'll bet 20p that they end up being replaced by extra seats within a few years. The trains are already short on seating availability, and could do without space being wasted on a feature which is not well utilised at busy times. Even empty space would be better so at least two or three people could stand there.

This is the trouble with 'off the shelf' trains being moved around from line to line. GN is primarily a commuter route, and the thing commuters value above all else is getting a seat if at all possible. Of course the 365 scores better than the 387 in that luggage can go in the aisles without getting in the way thanks to the wider aisle - no chance on a 387 which is tight for one person to pass along especially with the silly armrests to get snagged on.

 

[D365]

The luggage stacks on the 387s are inferior to the 365s.

I didn't even realise that the 365s have luggage racks until a few years ago. They are not visible in the slightest, all too frequently I see suitcases taking up seats whilst the racks go unused.

At least on the 387s I don't have to leave my suitcases on the seats if I want to sit next to the doors.

 

[bramling]

I didn't even realise that the 365s have luggage racks until a few years ago. They are not visible in the slightest, all too frequently I see suitcases taking up seats whilst the racks go unused.

At least on the 387s I don't have to leave my suitcases on the seats if I want to sit next to the doors.

Regulars certainly know about the 365 ones, their lack of prominence could easily be fixed with some signage. As for wanting to sit with luggage by the doors, now we're into cake and eat it territory. All very nice, but is that worth taking up two seats? One could simply put luggage on two seats on a 365 and have exactly the same effect - no doubt this wouldn't be well received should someone want to sit there, which tells us all we need to know about what the majority of passengers would prefer.

 

[jon0844]

FCC went mad with stickers at one point. A sticker for everything, and you'd probably see less on a public noticeboard. It seems we've gone to the other extreme now.

Plenty of people know they exist but seem to think they're for sitting on IME!

 

[Hadders]

I know what type of unit I'd rather be seeing at peak hours, and even off-peaks should be tolerable with fixed twelve car trains.

You've fallen for the spin...

The majority of the class 700s are 8-car not 12-car.

An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car class 365.

Why can't we have the Class 700s with class 365 style seats? Why does everything have to be fitted out to bargain basement standards?

 

[bramling]

You've fallen for the spin...

The majority of the class 700s are 8-car not 12-car.

An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car class 365.

Why can't we have the Class 700s with class 365 style seats? Why does everything have to be fitted out to bargain basement standards?

Yes, it took several attempts to get a certain former poster to admit that there will be 8-car 700s running about on peak-direction services. Promises of 12-car trains don't help when you're on an 8-car service, and as you rightly say the majority of the 700s are the shorter variety. No one seems to be bothering to lengthen platforms at the likes of Welwyn and Hatfield.

How long before someone in an office job somewhere hits on the brilliant idea that it's cheaper to run as many 8-cars as possible in the off-peak, with the 12-cars being stabled? The difference in seating availability between the 365 and 387 is already noticeable, a moderately loaded 2x365 is a crowded 2x387.

 

[Hadders]

Yes, it took several attempts to get a certain former poster to admit that there will be 8-car 700s running about on peak-direction services. Promises of 12-car trains don't help when you're on an 8-car service, and as you rightly say the majority of the 700s are the shorter variety. No one seems to be bothering to lengthen platforms at the likes of Welwyn and Hatfield.

How long before someone in an office job somewhere hits on the brilliant idea that it's cheaper to run as many 8-cars as possible in the off-peak, with the 12-cars being stabled? The difference in seating availability between the 365 and 387 is already noticeable, a moderately loaded 2x365 is a crowded 2x387.

I agree. My long suspicion is that Peterborough services will see some 12-car services but the Cambridge ones will be 8s. Cambridge services will make up the majority of the services on the GN side. Consider also that Bedford-Brighton services will need to be 12s and it looks even more likely that GN will get the rump of the 8s.

The increase in off peak frequency is very welcome but a question I keep asking, which no-one has been able to answer is:

How many additional services will run in the peak?

If, as I suspect, the answer is none (due to no paths being available) then we will see a reduction in peak capacity. We don't have any 4 car peak services (being pedantic there are a handful in the shoulder peak but that's not massively significant in the grand scheme of things), everything already runs as 8 or 12-car.

So how many exiting 8-car peak services on GN will get extended to 12.

An 8-car 365 replaced by an 8-car 700 will have fewer seats (this will be the case for many trains in the peak)
A 12-car 365 replaced by a 12-car 700 will have fewer seats

The only possible increase in peak capacity can come from:
Running more trains (unlikely I suspect)
Replacing an 8-car 365 with a 12-car 700 (I hope we'll have lots of these but I suspect we won't)

It's hard to see any benefits for peak time travelling on GN, post class 700 introduction.

 

[Fincra5]

I agree. My long suspicion is that Peterborough services will see some 12-car services but the Cambridge ones will be 8s. Cambridge services will make up the majority of the services on the GN side. Consider also that Bedford-Brighton services will need to be 12s and it looks even more likely that GN will get the rump of the 8s.

The increase in off peak frequency is very welcome but a question I keep asking, which no-one has been able to answer is:

How many additional services will run in the peak?

If, as I suspect, the answer is none (due to no paths being available) then we will see a reduction in peak capacity. We don't have any 4 car peak services (being pedantic there are a handful in the shoulder peak but that's not massively significant in the grand scheme of things), everything already runs as 8 or 12-car.

So how many exiting 8-car peak services on GN will get extended to 12.

An 8-car 365 replaced by an 8-car 700 will have fewer seats (this will be the case for many trains in the peak)
A 12-car 365 replaced by a 12-car 700 will have fewer seats

The only possible increase in peak capacity can come from:
Running more trains (unlikely I suspect)
Replacing an 8-car 365 with a 12-car 700 (I hope we'll have lots of these but I suspect we won't)

It's hard to see any benefits for peak time travelling on GN, post class 700 introduction.

I believe GTR have a public document somewhere with the initial proposed "timetable" and service routes. That may answer your questions.

 

[jopsuk]

For several years now, through the consultation, it's been pretty steady that the the OFF PEAK GN timetable north through Stevenage, next year, is supposed to be:
2x Peterborough (from Horsham? 12 car)
2x Cambridge Semi-fast (from Brighton, 12 car, because 12 car is needed on this service on the Brighton Main Line)
2x Cambridge Slow (Now to start at Maidstone, 8 car)
(and 2x Cambridge Express, eventually both to Kings Lynn, initially one to KLN, one to Ely, 387)

 

[Failed Unit]

I believe GTR have a public document somewhere with the initial proposed "timetable" and service routes. That may answer your questions.

Is that the one the consultation was based upon, or have they done some work since then?

I have read in modern railway that we have some issues with paths conflicting with MML services which could ultimately slow the Sheffield trains by 12 mins. But don't know if that was in the public domain.

 

[TheDavibob]

Is that the one the consultation was based upon, or have they done some work since then?

I have read in modern railway that we have some issues with paths conflicting with MML services which could ultimately slow the Sheffield trains by 12 mins. But don't know if that was in the public domain.

They'll have been adjustments, to be sure. However, building the timetable seems to be based around (perhaps not justifiably) the Cambridge (North) - Brighton via Gatwick semi-fast. These will be 12-car.

Since there's no reason for the Cambridge semi-fast *not* to be 12-car, and they would suffer if it isn't, they'll do their best to link it up with a 12-car south of the river regardless.

And given their current inability to run 8-car to Waterbeach and north of Ely, there doesn't seem to be any reason the cruiser won't consist of a 12-car 387 when needed, with the front four continuing to Lynn, as the 365s do now. Platform lengthening could result in the through trains being shortened to 8-car throughout, though.

Quite what happens if/when Ely North is done and whether they double the Kings Lynn trains remains to be seen, however.

 

[Hadders]

But what about the peaks?

 

[43074]

But what about the peaks?

From the 2018 Timetable Consultation Document: http://www.southernrailway.com/download/42915.6/timetable-consultation/

2tph Kings Lynn – Kings Cross (non-stop from Cambridge, but serving Royston at peak times)
2tph Cambridge – King’s Cross (Royston, Ashwell & Morden, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Welwyn North & London King’s Cross - peak only)
2tph Cambridge – Brighton (calling pattern as current semi-fast services)
2tph Cambridge – Maidstone East or Ashford Int (calling pattern as current slow services)
2tph Peterborough – King’s Cross (Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggeswade, Stevenage & London King’s Cross - peak only)
2tph Peterborough - Horsham (calling pattern as current semi-fast services)
2tph Welwyn Garden City – Sevenoaks (Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park, St Pancras International and beyond - peak only)

so 15 arrivals at King's Cross between 08:00 and 08:59 becomes 14 arrivals at St Pancras or King's Cross, which seems to come from having one less fast service from Peterborough.

 

[Hadders]

Currently of the 15 arrivals at Kings Cross between 0800-0859:

6 start at Peterborough (3 are 12-car, 3 are 8-car)
2 start at Cambridge (both 8-car)
2 start at Kings Lynn both 12-car south of Cambridge)
3 start at Royston (all 8-car)
1 starts at Letchworth (6-car)
1 starts at Welwyn Garden City (8-car)

So the 15 trains (five 12-car, nine 8-car and a six car) give a combined number of 138 carriages arriving at Kings Cross.

Let's assume we 'lose' the 6-car Letchworth service. How many of the nine 8-car trains will get lengthened to 12? Remember that most of the Class 700s are 8-car so they can't all get lengthened. Then factor in that a class 700 carriage has fewer seats than a 365/321/317.

I realise that this is a very simplistic overview based on the current timetable (although we know that no more trains are able to be run in the peaks) but it appears to me that there will not be a significant increase in seats on trains arriving at Kings Cross in the peak, which is what passengers have been led to believe will happen.

There will be more room for standing, and passengers from stations south of around Hitchin will have to get used to this being the norm. Those starting their journeys north of Hitchin will probably get a seat but a vastly inferior one compared to the current ones.

 

[adrock1976]

Many thanks for the comments - it has been an interesting thread so far.

From the 2018 Timetable Consultation Document: http://www.southernrailway.com/download/42915.6/timetable-consultation/

2tph Kings Lynn – Kings Cross (non-stop from Cambridge, but serving Royston at peak times)
2tph Cambridge – King’s Cross (Royston, Ashwell & Morden, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Welwyn North & London King’s Cross - peak only)
2tph Cambridge – Brighton (calling pattern as current semi-fast services)
2tph Cambridge – Maidstone East or Ashford Int (calling pattern as current slow services)
2tph Peterborough – King’s Cross (Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggeswade, Stevenage & London King’s Cross - peak only)
2tph Peterborough - Horsham (calling pattern as current semi-fast services)
2tph Welwyn Garden City – Sevenoaks (Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park, St Pancras International and beyond - peak only)

so 15 arrivals at King's Cross between 08:00 and 08:59 becomes 14 arrivals at St Pancras or King's Cross, which seems to come from having one less fast service from Peterborough.

I cannot open the link at this moment in time as my internet connection is erratic.

Regarding Peterborough - Horsham, will this be the route via East Croydon and Redhill, or via Sutton and Epsom?

 

[MCR247]

Many thanks for the comments - it has been an interesting thread so far.



I cannot open the link at this moment in time as my internet connection is erratic.

Regarding Peterborough - Horsham, will this be the route via East Croydon and Redhill, or via Sutton and Epsom?

East Croydon and Redhill, replacing the current Horsham - London Bridge services on this line

 

[adrock1976]

I've had a quick look at the Wikipedia page (I know it is sometimes not reliable) for the Class 365s and note that it mentions that the first 16 of the fleet were originally fitted with shoegear.

Does anybody know at this stage if 501 to 516 will be leaving, with maybe another 5 selected at random? Or has nothing been decided yet due to extraneous variables i.e elections etc delaying announcements?

 

[43096]

I've had a quick look at the Wikipedia page (I know it is sometimes not reliable) for the Class 365s and note that it mentions that the first 16 of the fleet were originally fitted with shoegear.

Does anybody know at this stage if 501 to 516 will be leaving, with maybe another 5 selected at random? Or has nothing been decided yet due to extraneous variables i.e elections etc delaying announcements?

The original plan was 21 sets to GWR and 19 staying with GTR. The reported split was odd numbers (365501/03/05...37/39/41) to go to GWR, with even numbers staying with GTR. That was some time ago, so has probably changed.

 

[physics34]

The original plan was 21 sets to GWR and 19 staying with GTR. The reported split was odd numbers (365501/03/05...37/39/41) to go to GWR, with even numbers staying with GTR. That was some time ago, so has probably changed.

no 365s are going to GWR

 

[D365]

no 365s are going to GWR

That's why 43096 stated it was "the original plan".

 

[physics34]

That's why 43096 stated it was "the original plan".

but said that it has probably changed...thats why i stated, basically confirmed, the fact that it has.

 

[MatthewRead]

no 365s are going to GWR

They ought to rather than just go into storage

 

[D365]

but said that it has probably changed...thats why i stated, basically confirmed, the fact that it has.

The change would be the units which will be going into storage [instead of GWR], that's what is being referred to.

They ought to rather than just go into storage

They won't, as I've explained countless times before.

 

[physics34]

They ought to rather than just go into storage

think we'll see them becoming bi-modes eventually

 

[D365]

think we'll see them becoming bi-modes eventually

That's when my user name will really come into its own

 

[Hadders]

I suspect they will all be needed on Great Northern when the service suffers an 'Operation Princess' style meltdown.

 

[bramling]

I suspect they will all be needed on Great Northern when the service suffers an 'Operation Princess' style meltdown.

Yes it's a case of when not if. Of course, it may take the powers that be a little while to realise their farcical dream isn't working.

 

[MCR247]

I wonder if any of the West Midlands franchise bidders are looking at the spare 365s, they could potentially run Wolverhampton - Walsall and eventually Rugeley, allowing 350s to concentrate on London and more 6 car 323s on Cross City

 

[D365]

I wonder if any of the West Midlands franchise bidders are looking at the spare 365s, they could potentially run Wolverhampton - Walsall and eventually Rugeley, allowing 350s to concentrate on London and more 6 car 323s on Cross City

Why would they choose 365s over the 323s or 350s coming spare from further north?

 

[MML]

When Corby to St.Pancras is electrified and if a 30 minute interval semi-fast service with stops at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway is introduced, then 12-car Class 387 would be ideal.

Class 365 could then return to Cambridge and Peterborough services for which they are more suited.