Class 360 Heathrow Connect

[SpacePhoenix]

There isn't a Terminal 5 shuttle, the only reason that one exists currently is because Heathrow Connect is 2tph; both Heathrow Express and the replacement Crossrail service are 4tph.

It'll be Heathrow Express only serving Terminal 5

 

[D365]

It'll be Heathrow Express only serving Terminal 5

I never disputed that. 4tph as present. Transit between Heathrow terminals using Express/Connect is free, and I presume using Crossrail it will be too.

 

[the sniper]

I'm sure they'll cope - there aren't many of them so they could perhaps be concentrated on specific services like Liverpool-Brum where capacity is sometimes a bit tight but not 8-car tight.

Can a coach be easily removed from Desiros if they didn't want odd-length sets? (Though as I said I think they may be useful as 5-car on certain services - how many sets does the Liverpool to Brum circuit require?).

Wouldn't suit the BHM to Liverpools. Numerous stations only accommodate 4x20m. It'd also present an issue at New Street as the Liverpools are highly reliant on Platform 4C, which only accommodates 4x20m.

Hopefully removing a carriage from them isn't an insurmountable challenge, unless someone needs an EMU micro fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't suit the BHM to Liverpools. Numerous stations only accommodate 4x20m. It'd also present an issue at New Street as the Liverpools are highly reliant on Platform 4C, which only accommodates 4x20m.

Some of these trains are heavily overcrowded, so a solution to this (or a frequency increase to 3 or even 4tph) will need to be found. SDO could be fitted for intermediate stations; is there anything it could swap with at New St?

 

[332 > 444]

Acceleration (or lack thereof), and stopping points on the platform (332s must draw down to the very end of the platform, even if formed a single unit). That combination causes the ITT to lose a shed load of time vs a 360.

The first T4 shuttles were run as 332s back in 2008, it lasted from March until the TT change in May before they switched to 360 operation. It does happen from time to time when they're short of 360s, but they try and avoid it.

All short formations must stop down the very end of the platform now, I think the change happened sometime last year or before that.

 

[Prestige15]

I reckon it will go to either South West Trains or London Midland with all the other Desiros are at although i doubt SWT would take them so its very likely it would end up with LM.

If they do go to LM it would be ideal if they also get upgrade to 110 mph and used on the London - Crewe allowing some 350's to run as 8 car.

 

[JN114]

So long as Heathrow Airport Holdings are actually willing to sell them on to a ROSCO...

 

[Mikey C]

Crossrail won't be going to Terminal 5 so the shuttle will still be needed

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/maps/route-map

At some point that will change surely. T5 may have the "premium" HEx service, but the vast majority of Heathrow rail users will use Crossrail instead, and British Airways won't want their main air terminal T5 to be the only one without Crossrail access
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So long as Heathrow Airport Holdings are actually willing to sell them on to a ROSCO...

Heathrow expansion and the 3rd runway are entirely down to government authorisation, I'm sure they won't do something against the wishes of the DfT...

 

[SWT_USER]

How many 360's are required for the Connect service to operate? Just curious as 2 of the 5 were parked up at OOC Depot this morning as we went past.

Is it 3 units for the Heathrow to Paddington circuit then one for for the inter terminal shuttle (which I assume is being run by a 332 today?)

 

[JN114]

How many 360's are required for the Connect service to operate? Just curious as 2 of the 5 were parked up at OOC Depot this morning as we went past.

Is it 3 units for the Heathrow to Paddington circuit then one for for the inter terminal shuttle (which I assume is being run by a 332 today?)

3 circuits for Connects, 1 for ITT

 

[SWT_USER]

3 circuits for Connects, 1 for ITT

Thanks. Could be interesting then as I notice the 10:03 from Paddington is cancelled due to a train fault. Hope they've managed to fix one of the others!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How long is the link to Terminal 5? If it's much less than a mile it seems silly to waste a unit all day and would be better off using a light-rail solution or even a run of travelators depending on how long it actually is.

 

[DelW]

From CTA (central terminal area) to T5 is a bit over 2km, and CTA to T4 is around 1.5km, both as the crow flies.

IIRC the shuttle only runs between CTA and T4 (filling in between the full Connect services) with the transfer between CTA and T5 being free on HEx. (I've never used the T5 transfer as I use the Woking Rail-air bus which serves both T5 and the CTA).

The shuttle uses existing tunnels, any other solution would need new tunnels as there is no surface route available.

 

[swt class 450]

Personally i do also think it is a waste of a unit to run this shuttle service. With some good planning it is perfectly possible to run both the Heathrow Connect and the T123 to T4 shuttle service with just three units. This means they would operate on a PAD - T123 - T4 - T123 - T4 - T123 - PAD diagram every hour and a half each. This would ensure that T123 to T4 still get four trains per hour (every fifteen minutes in each direction). This would very much increase reliability and flexibility by meaning there would be two spare units a day (just like there used to be) instead of only one spare unit a day.

I must say this shuttle has a very long and complex history:

Firstly Heathrow Express trains only ran to Heathrow Airport junction which was a (now closed) station near Hayes & Harlington where passengers had to change for buses to the terminals. Then when T123 station opened Heathrow Express trains started running through to T123 station. Then a few years later T4 opened and Heathrow Express trains started running through to T4 station. Shortly after the Heathrow Connect was introduced but only ran to T123 station but shortly after was extended to run to T4 station as well (meaning T123 to T4 had six trains per hour). Then T5 opened which meant that all Heathrow Express trains would run to T5 station while all Heathrow Connect trains would run to T4 station. This meant that T123 to T4 only had two trains per hour while T123 to T5 had four trains per hour. A few years later it was decided to run all Heathrow Connect trains (as well as the Heathrow Express trains) to T5 which meant that T123 to T5 had six trains per hour. At the same time the shuttle was introduced between T123 and T4 which gave them four trains per hour (the shuttle just ran back and fourth every day every fifteen minutes). For this shuttle 360 205 was refurbished and repainted from Heathrow Connect to Heathrow Express livery and had the seating converted from 3+2 to 2+2 and had the toilets locked out of use. Although in reality 360 201 / 360 202 / 360 203 / 360 204 often appear on the shuttle while 360 205 often appears on the mainline Heathrow Connect services. This arrangement lasted for quite a few years until last year when Heathrow Connect services where diverted back to T4 but the shuttle also continues to run. This means that T123 to T4 now has an increased service of six trains per hour (instead of four trains per hour) but T123 to T5 now has a reduced service of four trains per hour (instead of six trains per hour).

This will get even more complicating soon when Crossrail starts as Crossrail will replace the Heathrow Connect services. This will mean that all Crossrail services will go to T4 (four trains per hour) while all Heathrow Express services will go to T5 (four trains per hour).

 

[D365]

This will get even more complicating soon when Crossrail starts as Crossrail will replace the Heathrow Connect services. This will mean that all Crossrail services will go to T4 (four trains per hour) while all Heathrow Express services will go to T5 (four trains per hour).

How is that complicated? Crossrail serves Terminal 4, HEx serves Terminal 5. No need for a shuttle any longer.

 

[swt class 450]

How is that complicated? Crossrail serves Terminal 4, HEx serves Terminal 5. No need for a shuttle any longer.

I suppose its not really that complicating. I guess what i should have said is that it will add to the long history of the train services around the Heathrow Airport terminals.

 

[D365]

I suppose its not really that complicating. I guess what i should have said is that it will add to the long history of the train services around the Heathrow Airport terminals.

A few more line breaks would have helped in your previous post

Never realised that Connect actually ran to Terminal 5 though, I thought that it had always been through to Terminal 4, with the shuttle making it up to 4tph+

 

[NickBucks]

I don't know why so many trains serve T5. The principal occupant is BA who are no better than Ryanair these days and in some respects ( price) worse. Heathrow Express should provide a service for those airlines ( T2 / T3 / T4) who provide a premium service to match the price Heathrow Express charges on its trains.

 

[43096]

I don't know why so many trains serve T5. The principal occupant is BA who are no better than Ryanair these days and in some respects ( price) worse. Heathrow Express should provide a service for those airlines ( T2 / T3 / T4) who provide a premium service to match the price Heathrow Express charges on its trains.

There is certainly a case for HEx serving T4 and T5 alternately, and Crossrail the same, once the new service starts. It would keep the frequency to T4 and T5 but give direct services to each terminal on both routes. If you have luggage with you (as airport users often do!), a direct service to the terminal is much better.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't know why so many trains serve T5. The principal occupant is BA who are no better than Ryanair these days and in some respects ( price) worse. Heathrow Express should provide a service for those airlines ( T2 / T3 / T4) who provide a premium service to match the price Heathrow Express charges on its trains.

All trains serve T2 and T3 anyway

T5 is MUCH bigger than T4, and still growing, it makes sense to have more capacity there, and with Crossrail being a much more useful service than HEx for the majority of T5 customers, I'm sure there will be pressure to change the Crossrail to T4 only arrangements

 

[coppercapped]

All trains serve T2 and T3 anyway

T5 is MUCH bigger than T4, and still growing, it makes sense to have more capacity there, and with Crossrail being a much more useful service than HEx for the majority of T5 customers, I'm sure there will be pressure to change the Crossrail to T4 only arrangements

Are there data supporting the bolded statement, or is this supposition?

 

[Uzair]

The Heathrow Connect website makes it difficult to work out (IMO) that it serves T4. The maps make it look like it only runs PAD to Heathrow Central.

 

[Minstral25]

Are there data supporting the bolded statement, or is this supposition?

Passenger volume by terminal (millions) 2016:
Terminal 2 – 16.5 million passengers on 111,603 flights
Terminal 3 – 17.7 million passengers on 89,014 flights
Terminal 4 – 9.5 million passengers on 53,269 flights
Terminal 5 – 31.9 million passengers on 216,861 flights

From Heathrow's web page

 

[coppercapped]

Passenger volume by terminal (millions) 2016:
Terminal 2 – 16.5 million passengers on 111,603 flights
Terminal 3 – 17.7 million passengers on 89,014 flights
Terminal 4 – 9.5 million passengers on 53,269 flights
Terminal 5 – 31.9 million passengers on 216,861 flights

From Heathrow's web page

Thank you for these numbers - I hadn't realised how many more passengers used Terminal 5 than the others. However the data do not directly answer the question I posed as there is no linkage between rail use and the number of passengers using each terminal.

 

[racklam]

I don't know why so many trains serve T5. The principal occupant is BA who are no better than Ryanair these days and in some respects ( price) worse. Heathrow Express should provide a service for those airlines ( T2 / T3 / T4) who provide a premium service to match the price Heathrow Express charges on its trains.

A lot of business travel is still done on BA, and I think HEx tends to capture a larger share of the business market than the leisure market.

I very rarely use T4 so can't speak to how full those trains are, but the trains are always busy from T5.

 

[Minstral25]

Thank you for these numbers - I hadn't realised how many more passengers used Terminal 5 than the others. However the data do not directly answer the question I posed as there is no linkage between rail use and the number of passengers using each terminal.

There isn't any numbers but I'd suspect the terminal with over 40% of overall passengers would be more used by rail users than the one with 10%. BA probably has more originating passengers than the other airlines and thus if Crossrail doesn't serve terminal 5 then lots of passengers will be changing off crossrail at T2/3 station for T5.

Heathrow Express is like Gatwick Express a vanity service only for wealthy business persons.

My person view is that both should be removed and better services that all rail users can benefit from replace them (i.e. for Heathrow 8 Crossrail trains per hour)

 

[Mikey C]

Are there data supporting the bolded statement, or is this supposition?

It's a supposition as Crossrail hasn't opened yet, funnily enough!

However, I can't imagine many business travellers from the City or Canary Wharf taking a taxi to Paddington to catch HEx after Crossrail opens, it would be bizarre. You'd either take the taxi/private vehicle all the way or Crossrail.

From personal experience, HEx gets plenty of leisure customers anyway, as the Connect service is less frequent and not as "publicised". Once Crossrail opens, that will change

 

[coppercapped]

It's a supposition as Crossrail hasn't opened yet, funnily enough!

I am well aware that Crossrail has not yet opened but as the statement was made in the present tense I assumed it was based on some passenger flow studies. From your answer I see that it refers to a future possibility rather than a present fact.

However, I can't imagine many business travellers from the City or Canary Wharf taking a taxi to Paddington to catch HEx after Crossrail opens, it would be bizarre. You'd either take the taxi/private vehicle all the way or Crossrail.

Not all passengers for Heathrow, either now or in the future, will come from the City or Canary Wharf. There are large areas of London which will not be affected by Crossrail and for some of these Paddington will remain a useful node. Paddington is convenient for large areas of Kensington and Chelsea, Notting Hill, St. Johns Wood, Camden, Marylebone and Westminster which are not served by Crossrail at all. For all these and similar areas such as those on the Bakerloo Line corridor south of about Willesden to Lambeth a fast service to Heathrow with a change at Paddington will remain attractive. Over the last decade there has also been significant office development within walking distance of Paddington station which also generates traffic.

From personal experience, HEx gets plenty of leisure customers anyway,

Interesting, as Minstral25 in the adjacent post stated:

Heathrow Express is like Gatwick Express a vanity service only for wealthy business persons.

You can't both be correct.

as the Connect service is less frequent and not as "publicised". Once Crossrail opens, that will change

True. But as Connect is the local train service on the Great Western its transmogrification into Crossrail will mean that the inhabitants in that corridor will have a faster route to central London than they do now. Crossrail itself speaks of bringing another 1.5 million people to within 45 minutes of central London. This is expected to be the big change and is the main purpose of Crossrail - not ease of access to Heathrow.

 

[Clip]

Heathrow Express is like Gatwick Express a vanity service only for wealthy business persons.

No it isnt. Im not wealthy nor a business person and have used it a few times when going to Heathrow. You can also pick up good advances for it too if you are prepared to look for them.

 

[3141]

Heathrow Express is like Gatwick Express a vanity service only for wealthy business persons.

Using my Senior Railcard and booking in advance I'll be travelling from Paddington to Heathrow on Friday 28th April for £12.10 and from Heathrow to Paddington on Saturday 6th May for £5.50, in both directions on Heathrow Express.