Class 360 futures after Heathrow Connect?

[route:oxford]

Sound perfect for Chiltern(?) to run a Milton Keynes - Oxford shuttle when East-West opens and is electrified.

5 units would probably just enough, with DMUs filling in for maintenance.

Probably released about the same time too?

 

[Helvellyn]

Would it not be better to use the 5 5 car 360's on the London Waterloo - Portsmouth route via Basingstoke to free up class 444's to move back to the Waterloo - Portsmouth route via Guildford, that then free's up class 450's to move back to the Ascot Guildford route?

450s are going back on Ascot-Guildford anyway. My suggestion about the 360s was to use them on a relatively self-contained route. Better for scheduling, maintenance and if it all goes Pete Tong you don't have them suddenly escaping and Control finding they have a 5-car 360 arriving to couple with an 8-car 450 on an evening peak service. Plus, I don't think you'll get 444s back on the Pompey Direct - it's less capacity.

 

[sd0733]

A 5-car unit would be good on a few of the Crewe-Euston diagrams where multi working is a problem. Could dedicate them and have a few luggage racks and better FC fitted at one end. Wont happen though!!

If needs be could even send 5 350/1s onto SWT as AFAIK the 360s have no dual voltage so cant see them ever appearing in SWT land

 

[SpacePhoenix]

AFAIK the 360s have no dual voltage so cant see them ever appearing in SWT land

Can't be too hard to convert to dual voltage from AC only, would it be:

• Installation of shoegear onto the bogies
• Cable connection (through a fuse or circuit breaker) to a power bus
• Installation of a switch in the cab to select the power source
• Update to the TMS software

 

[nw1]

450s are going back on Ascot-Guildford anyway. My suggestion about the 360s was to use them on a relatively self-contained route. Better for scheduling, maintenance and if it all goes Pete Tong you don't have them suddenly escaping and Control finding they have a 5-car 360 arriving to couple with an 8-car 450 on an evening peak service. Plus, I don't think you'll get 444s back on the Pompey Direct - it's less capacity.

Also, I don't think Waterloo-Eastleigh-Portsmouth is self-contained. They arrive Waterloo at xx07 and leave at xx09 - I rather suspect they'd then go out on some other route (the Poole semi-fast?) after arriving at Waterloo, rather than waiting 1hr2mins for the next Portsmouth. Also I'm sure I've noticed inter-working between Eastleigh and Guildford routes at Portsmouth Harbour, in the peaks at least.

 

[fgwrich]

Also, I don't think Waterloo-Eastleigh-Portsmouth is self-contained. They arrive Waterloo at xx07 and leave at xx09 - I rather suspect they'd then go out on some other route (the Poole semi-fast?) after arriving at Waterloo, rather than waiting 1hr2mins for the next Portsmouth. Also I'm sure I've noticed inter-working between Eastleigh and Guildford routes at Portsmouth Harbour, in the peaks at least.

And on Sunday's, the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke services join and split from the Waterloo - Poole stoppers at Eastleigh. That said, you could always used them like FGW uses their 5 180s, not coming out over the weekends.

 

[SeanG]

Found this photo (not mine) of the 360s being rebuilt with no corridor connections.

I remember seeing a photo of the mock up with corridor connections so will keep digging

 

[swt_passenger]

By the time SWT have the 707s - which is just about when the 360s are available - supposedly every mainline service that can be strengthened by running longer 450s than now, i.e. up to 12 car, will have been achieved anyway. Proposing subtle changes to stock usage on the 'via Eastleigh' route in the off peaks to free up the odd 444 isn't really going to achieve much, if the priority remains to run 12 car 450s to Portsmouth.

All said I doubt SWT would need them at all.

 

[Bigfoot]

And on Sunday's, the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke services join and split from the Waterloo - Poole stoppers at Eastleigh. That said, you could always used them like FGW uses their 5 180s, not coming out over the weekends.

Amendments to the Sunday timetable will be removing some/all of the splits at Eastleigh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that they seem to have steel cab ends - aren't "noses" normally fibreglass these days with a less streamlined reinforcement behind?

Why did they remove the gangways - was it a DOO mirror visibility issue?

 

[humbersidejim]

Hi, longtime lurker, finally got an account as this thread in particular intrigued me.

Would it be technically feasable to split them to lengthen the TransPennine 350's?

Assuming it is, it could help solve some of the overcrowding issues on TPE both on the WCML and north TransPennine by freeing up some 185s.

I think the sucessful redeployment of the 460s within SWT may have set a precedent.

 

[fgwrich]

Hi, longtime lurker, finally got an account as this thread in particular intrigued me.

Would it be technically feasable to split them to lengthen the TransPennine 350's?

Assuming it is, it could help solve some of the overcrowding issues on TPE both on the WCML and north TransPennine by freeing up some 185s.

I think the sucessful redeployment of the 460s within SWT may have set a precedent.

Why split up the HEX units - Why not send them up to TPE as 5X5 car units? Ok, so the seating layout would have to be modified but?

Either TPE, LM or GE would be a good fit for these 5. LM could used them in the Birmingham area, TPE as above, GE would require the least amount of modification.

Thanks for finding that photo by the way - interesting to see that the cabs were not removed and replaced, rather just the corridor mountings removed and the hole plated over.

Neil - All of the Desiro UK Cabs are aluminum as per the bodysides. One reason why I like them that little bit more. And a lot more strength than the flimsy plastic-ness of a Bombardier Electrostar / Turbostar which does have Fibreglass / GRP front panels. I remember a picture rather well of a Ex MML XC Turbostar which hit a tractor on a farm crossing - it rather tore into that fiberglass front panel and Aly cab door!

 

[southern442]

One might need to have the Abbey Line handed over to LOROL to operate, or LM pay LOROL to operate it in a long term agreement, so the train to operate it comes up from Willesden perhaps?

Would that make sense given that the line is entirely outside of London? Unless LO just extended their Watford stoppers to run along the Abbey line, which I doubt would happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The dwell times would be worse than horrible...

The doors used on 378s and 700s are much quicker to cycle, and the LOROL depot at Willesden is a lot closer to get a spare on/off the line.

I'm not sure why 350s have never been cleared for the line, they'd do better with poor railhead conditions than the 319s.

Why are the doors on the Desiro's so slow? It can't be just because they are plug doors, because the ones on the Networkers (and T&W stock for that matter) are very fast.

 

[Nym]

Would that make sense given that the line is entirely outside of London? Unless LO just extended their Watford stoppers to run along the Abbey line, which I doubt would happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why are the doors on the Desiro's so slow? It can't be just because they are plug doors, because the ones on the Networkers (and T&W stock for that matter) are very fast.

As a contract, running an LM service with LOROL stock and crew, as is already done on some later services.

 

[matt_world2004]

Wouldnt they be used for the western Extention of the Heathrow Express service to Reading. Assuming they use the current Heathrow Express rolling stock going to Paddington.

 

[southern442]

As a contract, running an LM service with LOROL stock and crew, as is already done on some later services.

That would make sense I think I misread your earlier post, and actually it seems like a decent idea.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Wouldnt they be used for the western Extention of the Heathrow Express service to Reading. Assuming they use the current Heathrow Express rolling stock going to Paddington.

You beat me to it.

As yet, nothing has been decided about how the Reading - Heathrow service will be operated and in what form it'll take.
Options would include...
Part of the GWML franchise (i.e. currently GWR)
An extension to Crossrail
A stand alone service (possibly operated by HAL, the owner of the Heathrow Connect 360's)
An extension to HEX (what happens after 2023 though???)

Development of the Western rail link to Heathrow (formerly WRatH), is already in process, with the various consultation processes complete. The formal planning application process commences early next year (a few months time), with construction due to start in about 18 months from now (early spring 2017).
Opening date is slated for late 2021 (6 years time).

A decision on what service is to be operated on this new line, will have to be made in the next year or two.
Are there enough 360's to match the expected diagrams for the proposed frequency?
If the suggested extension to Oxford is included, surely that would rule the 360's out on fleet size?

 

[Panupreset]

Found this photo (not mine) of the 360s being rebuilt with no corridor connections.

I remember seeing a photo of the mock up with corridor connections so will keep digging

They could be 360-1's when being built for National Express when they ran GEML. No through gangways on those. That picture explains why the air cocks are on one side of the coaches on DMC1-PTSL-TS coach then the other side on DMC2!

 

[D365]

They could be 360-1's when being built for National Express when they ran GEML. No through gangways on those.

It was FGE which ordered the Class 360/1s to replace the remaining Class 312s - their 21 units were built from new.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Any updates on what is happening to the 360s after Greater Anglia fleet replacement and when Heathrow Connect is replaced by Crossrail?

 

[D365]

There are no updates regarding future use of the Heathrow Class 360/2s, or indeed any of the existing Greater Anglia fleet.

 

[edwin_m]

Ian Walmsley is suggesting in March Modern Railways that the various 360 fleets could go to the West Midlands to give the replacement London Midland franchise a fairly uniform fleet. This would leave the 323s with no home.

 

[D365]

Don't see what the benefit of that would be operationally, as platform lengths are more suited to 6 x 323 rather than 8 x Desiro.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Ian Walmsley is suggesting in March Modern Railways that the various 360 fleets could go to the West Midlands to give the replacement London Midland franchise a fairly uniform fleet. This would leave the 323s with no home.

West Midlands needs both the Northern 323s and the 360s. 323s for Bromsgrove, Rugeley and lengthening the CrossCity formations to a uniform 6 cars. And later the 350/4s if and when they become available. (There's a requirement for 60 extra diagrammed vehicles in the December 2021 timetable according to the Stakeholder briefing.)

360s to replace the 319s and to strengthen the peak services in and out of Euston that are only 8 cars that have standing for more than the contractual 20 minutes. Also to release a couple of 350s to extend one BNS-Wolves stopper each hour to Crewe via Stoke.

This gives a fairly uniform fleet of 323s based at Soho (with lots of outstabling) and Desiros based at Northampton (ditto).

 

[absolutelymilk]

So the West Midlands won't be getting the Heathrow Connect 360s, they are rapidly running out of possible homes! I suspect GA might snap up a few, but they will only be needed until the new stock starts arriving in 2019.

 

[Clansman]

So the West Midlands won't be getting the Heathrow Connect 360s, they are rapidly running out of possible homes! I suspect GA might snap up a few, but they will only be needed until the new stock starts arriving in 2019.

Without trying to be over the top, a flex style program would open up many opportunities for rolling stock as modern as the 360s. It might be the only chance these trains will have bar scrapping or anything else equally or more expensive.

Can think of many places they'd do a job, but realistically, it's hard to predict what'll become of them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed, whilst the current ordering stock for ordering stocks sake continues scrapping perfectly good trains half way through their life will become extremely common and quite frankly it's started to make me disllusioned with the whole industry to see huge amounts of money wasted when I think of the other areas in the system that could benefit from the level of investment we're seeing in new trains.

The irony was for a long time we had a situation where nowhere near enough new stock was being ordered but the last few years every new franchise appears to get massive amounts of new stock whether it is needed or not despite the fact perfectly good stock is still out there.

There's some stock that has to go, but 360s, which are excellent trains and feel nothing like their age being talked of like this pretty much shows everything that is wrong with the rolling stock industry these days.

 

[CosherB]

Indeed, whilst the current ordering stock for ordering stocks sake continues scrapping perfectly good trains half way through their life will become extremely common and quite frankly it's started to make me disllusioned with the whole industry to see huge amounts of money wasted when I think of the other areas in the system that could benefit from the level of investment we're seeing in new trains.

The irony was for a long time we had a situation where nowhere near enough new stock was being ordered but the last few years every new franchise appears to get massive amounts of new stock whether it is needed or not despite the fact perfectly good stock is still out there.

There's some stock that has to go, but 360s, which are excellent trains and feel nothing like their age being talked of like this pretty much shows everything that is wrong with the rolling stock industry these days.

The TOCs are ordering new large common fleets of trains because they are cheaper to lease over the lifetime of the franchise, rather than retaining existing stock. Simple.

 

[Marklund]

The TOCs are ordering new large common fleets of trains because they are cheaper to lease over the lifetime of the franchise, rather than retaining existing stock. Simple.

Common to that TOC, at that time though.
In the long term, if and when TOCs change boundaries...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without trying to be over the top, a flex style program would open up many opportunities for rolling stock as modern as the 360s. It might be the only chance these trains will have bar scrapping or anything else equally or more expensive.

Possibly easier to do with 350/1s as they have third rail capability. And if I recall rightly almost nothing slung under the driving coaches.