Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[DarloRich]

The 350 is a good train. it is miles (MILES) better than the trains it will replace even with the 3 seat layout. They are good quality, reliable and have high capacity. Northern users should be pleased to be getting them. I am glad they have found a new home.

And, yes, the middle seats were used going into Euston every day. Not my favourite seat but better than standing for an hour.

 

[bnsf734]

The award for the Train Service Agreement to Siemens Mobility raises the interesting question of where they will be based. The award states Siemens will be responsible for maintenance and certain cleaning. Ardwick depot comes to mind, but whether it can cope with a fleet of 37 350/2, or whether Siemens will take on the former International depot on the other side of the tracks at Longsight where CAF used it for a time and is now used for overnight stabling of 323's.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The award for the Train Service Agreement to Siemens Mobility raises the interesting question of where they will be based. The award states Siemens will be responsible for maintenance and certain cleaning. Ardwick depot comes to mind, but whether it can cope with a fleet of 37 350/2, or whether Siemens will take on the former International depot on the other side of the tracks at Longsight where CAF used it for a time and is now used for overnight stabling of 323's.

And currently Allerton is the 323s main maintenance base, so that's probably in for consideration too.

 

[david l]

Yep, they're at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/northern_unit_diagrams_may_to_de

Of 34:
Monday-Friday, there are 25 (73.5%)
Saturdays, there are 21 (61.7%)
Sundays, there are 3 out all day (8.8%), 2 coming out to run just the 22:15 from Liverpool to Blackpool North for some reason (5 = 14.7%), and 1 running just as an ECS from Crewe to Allerton (6 = 17.6%) - not sure what a normal Sunday service would be, it's been so long since we've had one.

Today there are 23 in use out of the diagrammed 25. Of the other 11 Northern units, 3 have not been in use for some time (218/29/42), 1 was last active on 17/5 (217) whilst the other 7 units all have been in use in the last week, with 226 on 8/7, 232/35/38/39 on 9/7, 212 on 12/7 and 209 on 13/7. The other 9 remain in store off-lease at Long Marston.
Somewhat better availability than the 769's...

 

[scosutsut]

It's not normal, typically either the fleet owner or the company taking the lease pays. It's relatively common for the original manufacturer to be selected for major refurbishments or the current operator for smaller scale refurbs. It's far from unheard of for news outlets to accidentally misrepresent funders in complicated transactions. It's possible Siemens are contributing as the intent is for them to do the train maintenance so might fund anything to improve reliability.

Two transparency notices for direct awards have hit the standard procurement portals. One to Porterbrook for leasing the trains and a second to Siemens for a train service agreement/maintaining the trains.

Interesting parts of the leasing one:

The train services agreement doesn't add much to the above, the justification section also has this:


The 8 year break clause seems so phase 2 of the new trains framework could replace the 350s if they don't meet their targets otherwise until 2042. Cost wise the leasing is £222m excluding VAT over term which would be £93k per year per vehicle. The train maintanence is £158m excluding VAT so around £10m per year for the whole fleet.

Great, informative reply, many thanks!

 

[jfollows]

The 350 is a good train. it is miles (MILES) better than the trains it will replace even with the 3 seat layout. They are good quality, reliable and have high capacity. Northern users should be pleased to be getting them. I am glad they have found a new home.

And, yes, the middle seats were used going into Euston every day. Not my favourite seat but better than standing for an hour.

Agreed, this is the key point. I have no problem with the middle seat on busy trains. I’ve used them on 350/2 in the past. It’s only sensible to use them to replace the 323s. I know there are real difficulties, such as the tight timing and short turn-round times of the Manchester-Hadfield services, but a train is better than no train, which is increasingly where we are, and retiming could be an option.
It’s mad that it’s taken so long to come to this sensible and obvious conclusion. And, yes, I know that there are “reasons” why it’s not as easy as someone like me doesn’t know about, so I’m glad they’ve either been resolved or over-ruled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, this is the key point. I have no problem with the middle seat on busy trains. I’ve used them on 350/2 in the past. It’s only sensible to use them to replace the 323s.

350s are less cramped seating wise than 323s - this is odd as 350s are narrower, but they are a squarer shape. Aircon will be the main gain though.

 

[Starmill]

And, yes, I know that there are “reasons” why it’s not as easy as someone like me doesn’t know about, so I’m glad they’ve either been resolved or over-ruled.

Or so one hopes. The infrastructure changes needed won't be resolved for some considerable time yet.

 

[jfollows]

Or so one hopes. The infrastructure changes needed won't be resolved for some considerable time yet.

Yes, the “unknown unknowns”, I totally accept I‘m not in a position to know enough here. But they’re reasonably standard electric trains running on electrified lines.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, the “unknown unknowns”, I totally accept I‘m not in a position to know enough here. But they’re reasonably standard electric trains running on electrified lines.

They're generally not unknown. They're mentioned up the thread, though I appreciate buried now, mainly moving some signals for sighting, extending the platform and moving the signal at Stoke-on-Trent and raising speeds between Hadfield and Glossop. There are also questions of sidings and depot roads which cannot accommodate pairs, that are currently used by pairs of 323s. Of course, you're right, some will also be unknown unknowns.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 350 is a good train. it is miles (MILES) better than the trains it will replace even with the 3 seat layout. They are good quality, reliable and have high capacity. Northern users should be pleased to be getting them. I am glad they have found a new home.

And, yes, the middle seats were used going into Euston every day. Not my favourite seat but better than standing for an hour.

Agreed. All the Desiro UK classes are excellent trains.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Agreed. All the Desiro UK classes are excellent trains.

The 360s fail a lot.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 360s fail a lot.

Isn't that partly the fault that their heavy maintenance depot (Northampton) requires a long route either fitting through the North London line, or a diesel hauled drag via Nuneaton?

 

[Nym]

What is also crazy is that double rate sanders were fitted in the last few years to 323s (with public funding). Poor use of public funding if the units are scrapped!

Just a shame that the way the Sanders are designed there's not really any chance of them fitting anything else.

 

[darylyates17]

That won't be a Northern service any more, so nearly all Northern trains to Crewe will serve all stations from Wilmslow.

There is no chance of any 323s staying on if all of the 350s are accepted. Even with some 331s moving to Yorkshire and all of the 323s leaving for scrap there is hardly enough stabling space for the 350s.

No. Eventually that space will be used up serving Golborne.

Could the additional Chat Moss service terminate at the new Golborne station or extended to Wigan North Western if pathing doesn’t allow it to extend to Manchester?

 

[Bob85]

Bit late to the party, but this seems like it'll be a massive upgrade. I'll be interested to see just how in-depth the refurb will be.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I did this previously on the old thread, but the data isn't quite right (e.g. Salford Crescent is shorter than it should be), I will pull up the sectional appendix at some point and get the proper numbers but these are about right.

You could run the existing service pretty as 2*350/2s well with the current platforms, but Salford Crescent and Deansgate may prove problems due to signals and points, locking out the rear car with SDO would likely not prove much of a problem for the stations Lostock-Leyland.

Updated as per sectional appendix:

For Manchester Airport - Blackpool North, the platform lengths are (Bold stations are 160m), the amount of 20m carriages usable each way is in (brackets) for stations shorter than 8 carriages

Manchester Airport - P1 196m, P2 197m, P3 200m, P4 201m.
Heald Green - 182m
(7) Gatley - 147m
(7) East Didsbury - 147m
(7) Burnage - 149m
(6/7) Mauldeth Road - P1 139m, P2 147m.
Manchester Piccadilly - P13 277m, P14 266m. (1-10 all fit 160m, 11 and 12 don't)
Manchester Oxford Road - P1 105m (5), P2 160m, P3 137m (6), P4 162m, P5 105m (5).
(7) Deansgate - P1 150m, P2 155m
(7) Salford Crescent - P1 158m, P2 153m
(4) Clifton - 95m
(5/6) Kearsley - P2 109m, P1 126m
(5) Farnworth - 100m
(4) Moses Gate - 85m
Bolton - P1 124m (for turning), P3 305m (222m 'wrong' way), P4 252m, P5 271m.
(7) Lostock - 155m
(7) Horwich Parkway - 141m
(7) Blackrod - 143m
(7) Adlington - 143m
(7) Chorley - Down 150m, Up 158m
(7) Buckshaw Parkway - 150m
(7) Leyland - P1 151m, P2 145m, P3 145m, P4, 143m
Preston - P1/2 272m, P3 359m, P4 283m, P5 271m, P6 291m, Parcel 314m.
(4) Salwick - 93m
Kirkham and Wesham - P2 183m, P3 198m
Poulton-Le-Fylde - P1 162m, P2 170m
(7) Layton - P1 145m, P2 148m
Blackpool North - P1/2 277m, P3 217m, P4/6 205m, P5 203m.

 

[lowe1409]

With deansgate, there's signals directly at the eastern side of the station, but a decent sized gap at the western end. Could it work with a system of locking the front carriage towards blackpool and the rear towards the airport so trains always overhang the western end of the station.

Admittedly, does nothing to solve the salford problem however though again, wouldn't be a massve overhang to the platforms so maybe could just about squeeze

 

[pokemonsuper9]

With deansgate, there's signals directly at the eastern side of the station, but a decent sized gap at the western end. Could it work with a system of locking the front carriage towards blackpool and the rear towards the airport so trains always overhang the western end of the station.

Surely ASDO could just do this, as it does for TfW, rather than needing to lock a whole carriage and losing most of the benefit of 8, 7*20m (140m) is hardly better than 6*23m (138m), and the 331s that will remain are excellent with large crowds (although the 350s aren't the worst in this regard).

Admittedly, does nothing to solve the salford problem however though again, wouldn't be a massve overhang to the platforms so maybe could just about squeeze

I don't know how much of a problem Platform 2 at Salford Crescent is, since the train would need to be past the signal at the rear, and I know the points aren't too far back from that.
Platform 1 isn't as much of a problem since Platform 3 will be open by then and I think that's got though space between the points and it.

 

[Class 466]

The press releases have all been fairly specific about them being used on “South Manchester” routes initially, which I’d argue does not include the Blackpool North services. If you replace all the South Manchester & Wigan local 323 & 331 Diagrams, I wonder how many unit diagrams you are up to then. the freed up 4 331/0s could then go onto Blackpool North workings. I'm sure there's probably at least one 6 car Airport-Blackpool circuit that misses both peak flows too that could potentially go to 4 car 331 (AN117/123 misses both peaks for example). The occasional interworking between the Liverpool - Blackpool & Airport - Blackpool services could easily be revised too.

 

[em81]

You could run the existing service pretty as 2*350/2s well with the current platforms, but Salford Crescent and Deansgate may prove problems due to signals and points, locking out the rear car with SDO would likely not prove much of a problem for the stations Lostock-Leyland.

Updated as per sectional appendix:

For Manchester Airport - Blackpool North, the platform lengths are (Bold stations are 160m), the amount of 20m carriages usable each way is in (brackets) for stations shorter than 8 carriages

The number of platforms which can currently take 7 carriages isn't a surprise, given they were lengthened specifically to handle 6 car 331s.

The West Midlands franchise has plenty of experience of using 350s at platforms shorter than the formation length. They've even been known to stop 12 car 350s at platforms which can only take 4. The guards give clear announcements telling anyone alighting to walk through to the front 4 carriages, and repeat the instruction.

Although, given the policy Northern recently invented for doubled up Sprinters on the Mid Cheshire line, I would not be surprised if they decided to run 8 car 350s on Blackpool stoppers and to keep the rear carriage locked out of use for the entire journey from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although, given the policy Northern recently invented for doubled up Sprinters on the Mid Cheshire line, I would not be surprised if they decided to run 8 car 350s on Blackpool stoppers and to keep the rear carriage locked out of use for the entire journey from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North.

To be fair 15x don't have any form of selective door opening aside from local door only.

 

[em81]

The press releases have all been fairly specific about them being used on “South Manchester” routes initially, which I’d argue does not include the Blackpool North services. If you replace all the South Manchester & Wigan local 323 & 331 Diagrams, I wonder how many unit diagrams you are up to then. the freed up 4 331/0s could then go onto Blackpool North workings. I'm sure there's probably at least one 6 car Airport-Blackpool circuit that misses both peak flows too that could potentially go to 4 car 331 (AN117/123 misses both peaks for example). The occasional interworking between the Liverpool - Blackpool & Airport - Blackpool services could easily be revised too.

I think the reference to South Manchester relates to the initial 5 units. The majority of Crewe, Alderley Edge and Stoke services are 323s. Looking at the allocation for today there's just two 4 car workings on the Crewe routes, and all the Northern services scheduled to stop at Macclesfield are 3 car.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The West Midlands franchise has plenty of experience of using 350s at platforms shorter than the formation length. They've even been known to stop 12 car 350s at platforms which can only take 4. The guards give clear announcements telling anyone alighting to walk through to the front 4 carriages, and repeat the instruction.

Although in the case of Atherstone (one such Unit DeSelect 4 from 12), it actually fits 6 350 carriages, and I believe a project has been ongoing to fit proper SDO (as will probably be done for the 350/2s) to them so this full length can be used.

Although, given the policy Northern recently invented for doubled up Sprinters on the Mid Cheshire line, I would not be surprised if they decided to run 8 car 350s on Blackpool stoppers and to keep the rear carriage locked out of use for the entire journey from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North.

That's because 150/156s have no SDO whatever, it's either fully manually locked (I.e. no fire escape) or they'll open (which is not permitted where there is no platform), the extra capacity is well appreciated when the rear carriages are available closer to Manchester.
(The same is also done for Headbolt Lane services, since Orrel, Upholland and Rainford don't fit 4, but that part of the journey is generally quite quiet anyway)

 

[em81]

To be fair 15x don't have any form of selective door opening aside from local door only.

The idea of allocating a 4 carriage set to a route and keeping the rear carriage locked out-of-use for the entire day does seem to be a unique Northern idea. On Manchester bound trains the guards don't even unlock the rear set at Altrincham or Stockport, even when the service is ahead of schedule and the open carriages are getting very full.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2026 ==

That's because 150/156s have no SDO whatever, it's either fully manually locked (I.e. no fire escape) or they'll open (which is not permitted where there is no platform), the extra capacity is well appreciated when the rear carriages are available closer to Manchester.
(The same is also done for Headbolt Lane services, since Orrel, Upholland and Rainford don't fit 4, but that part of the journey is generally quite quiet anyway)

In case you're unaware they don't open the rear carriages for part of the journey anymore. That practice used to exist on the Mid Cheshire line before COVID, but doesn't happen anymore. I'm not aware of any other operator who has that policy.

Although in the case of Athertone (one such Unit DeSelect 4 from 12), it actually fits 6 350 carriages

The switch to the 730s on that route is beneficial in that sense. The 730s do seem to have a teething problem wrongly annoucing short platforms though. I was on one where the annoucements were wrongly activated at both Wolverhampton and Crewe, but that's a separate discussion.

 

[amahy]

The press releases have all been fairly specific about them being used on “South Manchester” routes initially, which I’d argue does not include the Blackpool North services. If you replace all the South Manchester & Wigan local 323 & 331 Diagrams, I wonder how many unit diagrams you are up to then. the freed up 4 331/0s could then go onto Blackpool North workings. I'm sure there's probably at least one 6 car Airport-Blackpool circuit that misses both peak flows too that could potentially go to 4 car 331 (AN117/123 misses both peaks for example). The occasional interworking between the Liverpool - Blackpool & Airport - Blackpool services could easily be revised too.

It's not as simple as this, as on a Saturday, trains are generally busy for most of the day, and "peak time" doesn't really exist.

It makes far more sense to transfer the 4 car 331s back to Leeds and having all diagrams there as 4 car, and running all Airport to Blackpool/Liverpool trains as 6 car 331s.

 

[DarloRich]

Bit late to the party, but this seems like it'll be a massive upgrade. I'll be interested to see just how in-depth the refurb will be.

They will need a good refurb as the interiors were very tired when they went out of LNWR service.

 

[Mamorin]

I think the reference to South Manchester relates to the initial 5 units. The majority of Crewe, Alderley Edge and Stoke services are 323s. Looking at the allocation for today there's just two 4 car workings on the Crewe routes, and all the Northern services scheduled to stop at Macclesfield are 3 car.

Using the first 5 350/2s on South Manchester services would work.

Well apart from Stoke peak time services where 331s would be needed, as 5 350/2s is not enough to cover all Peak time Stoke diagrams as well as Crewe and Alderley Edge diagrams.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If you replace all the South Manchester & Wigan local 323 & 331 Diagrams, I wonder how many unit diagrams you are up to then.

Looking at the Monday-Friday diagrams since that's the most intensive, there are 10 323s, 4 331/0s, and 8 331/1s on those services

See breakdown below:

Diagram numbers have the home depot, and a number, each series is a certain type, e.g. AN = Allerton, AN1xx = 323s, 8xx = 331 (with 851 onwards being /1s)

Any that do a majority of their day on Glossop, and Blackpool/Liverpool - Airport have been excluded, the remainders are:
Crewe - AN101, AN104, AN110, AN859
Alderley Edge - AN857, AN860
Stoke - AN103, AN106, AN113 (ends with 2 Glossop runs), AN114 (ends with 22:44 Wilmslow - Liverpool)
Blackpool/Wigan-Liverpool - AN115, AN116, AN804, AN852, AN854, AN856, AN861

Peak Only:
AN111 = Wilmslow - Piccadilly - Crewe - Piccadilly morning peak, Piccadilly -> Hazel Grove outbound evening peak
AN801 = Liverpool - Wigan - Victoria - Wigan evening peak only
AN802 = Wigan - Manchester via Eccles morning and evening peak (2 returns to Manchester each time)
AN803 = Wigan - Victoria - Wigan - Liverpool morning peak only
AN858 = Stoke - Manchester morning, Manchester - Stone -(empty)- Crewe - Manchester - Crewe - Manchester evening

 

[AndrewE]

Other than Northern, there really wasn’t another use for these units that was anywhere near to close to fitting. Much like the 379s that were always destined to end up on the Great Northern.

have you considered that as 350s are running Birmingham to Liverpool, these could have displaced Voyagers Brum to Manc? It's not a straight swap, but many people think that with a will it could have been do-able.