Class 345 progress

[Snow1964]

Some updates are in the Elizabeth line committee Board papers

page 30

Fleet Readiness – Further detailed evidence is required from Alstom of their plans to improve fleet reliability over and above the planned software update later in the year. We also need an understanding of the risk/impact if Siemens are unable to provide the 24/7 support cover requested by Alstom.

Alstom’s detailed reliability growth plan was provided and updated in July 2022.
Units cannot be returned to service in Stage 5b minus with any communications-based train control (CBTC) operating restrictions (unlike Stage 3 where units with a CBTC restriction can be used on Great Western Main Line-only diagrams while CBTC fault diagnosis is done).
Alstom and Siemens have now reached an agreement on the level of Siemens support- which includes extending Siemens’ on-site cover to 24/7. Provision of Siemens’ support to Alstom would enable the prompt diagnosis of suspected CBTC defects, including overnight and at weekends. This should mitigate the potential risk to fleet availability at start of service if the number of units with an undiagnosed / unfixed CBTC defect was to exceed four at any one time.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g663/Public%20reports%20pack%20Thursday%2029-Sep-2022%2010.00%20Elizabeth%20Line%20Committee.pdf?T=10

 

[SolomonSouth]

The remaining 7 car 345s are :-
345042
345056
345064 (which apparently had a spell more than a year ago as 9-car istr)
They are only used out of Paddington high level.

Thanks

 

[345 050]

Recently I have only observed 056 and 064 in service on the peak workings. Any chance 042 is in the process of being extended? Or is it too early...

 

[Snow1964]

Recently I have only observed 056 and 064 in service on the peak workings. Any chance 042 is in the process of being extended? Or is it too early...

Presumably there will be no longer any need for the remaining 7car units

No peak workings on a Sunday, and the through running timetable commences in November

When the last vehicles (2 extra cars) enter service will finally bring entry into service to a close. From memory first 345 vehicles went into service June 2017, so the 630 vehicles will have taken over 5 years 4 months to all go into service. (Currently about 1950 days, less than one vehicle every third day)

Will it break the 2000 days from first to last entering service?

 

[306024]

Presumably there is no longer any need for the remaining 7car units

No peak workings on a Sunday, and the through running timetable commences tomorrow.

You must know something no one else does

 

[Horizon22]

Presumably there is no longer any need for the remaining 7car units

No peak workings on a Sunday, and the through running timetable commences tomorrow.

When the last vehicles (2 extra cars) enter service will finally bring entry into service to a close. From memory first 345 vehicles went into service June 2017, so the 630 vehicles will have taken over 5 years 4 months to all go into service. (Currently about 1950 days, less than one vehicle every third day)

Will it break the 2000 days from first to last entering service?

Think you’ve got your Bond St opening & through-running dates mixed up!

But everything goes through the central section with no peak P14 working at Paddington so everything will be a 9-car. The only possible doubt is the peak Liverpool St - Gidea Park services which might be 7-cars, or even 315s.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

But everything goes through the central section with no peak P14 working at Paddington so everything will be a 9-car. The only possible doubt is the peak Liverpool St - Gidea Park services which might be 7-cars, or even 315s.

Apart from a few last 315 trips in November, then is no need for 7 car working on the East side. Everything has been lengthened (or has SDO) including Liverpool Street.

Indeed, the 315 have probably been retained for the extra month precisely to allow the spare 7 cars to be lengthened. No practical reason otherwise.

 

[hwl]

Indeed, the 315 have probably been retained for the extra month precisely to allow the spare 7 cars to be lengthened. No practical reason otherwise.

That was precisely the reason as Crossrail split in three even with lower service levels has very high unit requirement which makes it difficult to do the remaining 7 to 9 car conversion quickly (e.g. in parallel)

 

[43096]

Think you’ve got your Bond St opening & through-running dates mixed up!

But everything goes through the central section with no peak P14 working at Paddington so everything will be a 9-car. The only possible doubt is the peak Liverpool St - Gidea Park services which might be 7-cars, or even 315s.

There will be no east side 7-cars (and haven’t been for some time) as 7-car 345s cannot go through the core. They would need to be dragged round from Old Oak to Ilford.

 

[Horizon22]

There will be no east side 7-cars (and haven’t been for some time) as 7-car 345s cannot go through the core. They would need to be dragged round from Old Oak to Ilford.

The peak services on the East (only 2 AM/PM) don’t go via the core. I’m only saying it’s feasible to put one of 3 different types of stock (7-car, 9-car or 315) on those journeys, not that it’s actually going to happen. For every other service yes it will be 9-cars as that’s all that can run.

 

[43096]

The peak services on the East (only 2 AM/PM) don’t go via the core. I’m only saying it’s feasible to put one of 3 different types of stock (7-car, 9-car or 315) on those journeys, not that it’s actually going to happen. For every other service yes it will be 9-cars as that’s all that can run.

My point was that it isn't feasible to run 7-cars out of Liverpool Street HL.

 

[Horizon22]

My point was that it isn't feasible to run 7-cars out of Liverpool Street HL.

You mentioned the core. It would be perfectly feasible to run a 7-car into Liverpool Street High Level, just unlikely.

 

[43096]

You mentioned the core. It would be perfectly feasible to run a 7-car into Liverpool Street High Level, just unlikely.

You're now just being pedantic for the sake of it. Perhaps you could explain how you get a 7-car set over to Liverpool Street HL without using the core? If your answer is "drag it via the North London Line" the question then is, why would you?

 

[Peter Sarf]

You mentioned the core. It would be perfectly feasible to run a 7-car into Liverpool Street High Level, just unlikely.

The 345s are maintained at Old Oak Common. The 7-car version cannot go through the core as the software is not capable of handling the signalling there. So if a 7-car 345 were used on the East side then it would regularly have to be dragged via the North London suburbs to and from maintenance.

 

[Horizon22]

The 345s are maintained at Old Oak Common. The 7-car version cannot go through the core as the software is not capable of handling the signalling there. So if a 7-car 345 were used on the East side then it would regularly have to be dragged via the North London suburbs to and from maintenance.

True. But it could still happen, if they were maintained elsewhere is my point. But that would indeed be a massive hassle, considering how much is kept at Old Oak Common.

 

[Peter Sarf]

True. But it could still happen, if they were maintained elsewhere is my point. But that would indeed be a massive hassle, considering how much is kept at Old Oak Common.

That prompts the thought. The whole Elizabeth line relies on one depot which could be a risk. I suppose other tube lines do similar.

 

[321over360]

I thought a big reason for the works done to Ilford Depot was due to Crossrail as surely some maintenance has been done at the depot there to date, given Bombardier built new works at Ilford for Crossrail

 

[Peter Sarf]

I thought a big reason for the works done to Ilford Depot was due to Crossrail as surely some maintenance has been done at the depot there to date, given Bombardier built new works at Ilford for Crossrail

Would make sense. But I seem to recall Ilford cannot handle the length of a 9-car 345 - maybe I am wrong ?.

 

[306024]

A Shop (the shed still standing at the Ilford end) could just about maintain a 7 car 345, a 9 car certainly doesn’t fit. 7 cars were regularly maintained there in the early days of 345 introduction.

B shop (in the middle of the yard) was demolished to provide the extra stabling capacity Crossrail required for 9 car 345s. This also gave GA bit more space in the rest of the depot.

The inspection shed at the Seven Kings end is used to maintain the GA fleet.

 

[345 050]

042 is in service this evening, so I assume all three are still 7-car.

 

[JN114]

042 is in service this evening, so I assume all three are still 7-car.

I don’t expect any of the 7 cars to be lengthened until through running starts

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don’t expect any of the 7 cars to be lengthened until through running starts

The only reason I can see to lengthen one of the last three 345s early is if TfL want to gamble on through running starting on time and going OK. Coupled with only needing two 7-car in service before and IF they need an extra 9-car quickly after through running starts. But it will never happen long before through running starts.

 

[reddragon]

The only reason I can see to lengthen one of the last three 345s early is if TfL want to gamble on through running starting on time and going OK. Coupled with only needing two 7-car in service before and IF they need an extra 9-car quickly after through running starts. But it will never happen long before through running starts.

That's what the 3 class 315 x2 sets left are for. To allow the 7 cars to become 9 cars after the switch.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That's what the 3 class 315 x2 sets left are for. To allow the 7 cars to become 9 cars after the switch.

So what will cover the Reading services that the 7-car 345s currently do ?. Or is that absorbed by all the 345s that come West out of the central section coupled with savings of turnaround time at Paddington ?.

 

[reddragon]

So what will cover the Reading services that the 7-car 345s currently do ?. Or is that absorbed by all the 345s that come West out of the central section coupled with savings of turnaround time at Paddington ?.

There are 70 units to cover all planned diagrams. Whilst 3 are out of action awaiting 7-9car conversion, 3 diagrams from Gidea Park to Liverpool St HL can be covered by 315s. Once done, those 315s go.

 

[Snow1964]

There are 70 units to cover all planned diagrams. Whilst 3 are out of action awaiting 7-9car conversion, 3 diagrams from Gidea Park to Liverpool St HL can be covered by 315s. Once done, those 315s go.

As the through timetable in 10 days is only 22 tph rather than the full 24tph, there should be a few spare trains initially.

Also it is normal practice to size a fleet with maintenance spares, and as none have yet gone off for heavy maintenance / refurbishment the allowance for those would also be usable at current time.

Therefore having 2 or 3 out of service for lengthening prior to full timetable in May 2023 should not require 3 class 315 diagrams.

If cannot manage without the 315s now, how will a 9% frequency increase and refurbishment float be covered in the future?

 

[43102EMR]

There are 70 units to cover all planned diagrams. Whilst 3 are out of action awaiting 7-9car conversion, 3 diagrams from Gidea Park to Liverpool St HL can be covered by 315s. Once done, those 315s go.

According to Part Time Spotter’s blog, only 2 were out yesterday; 042 and 056, with 063 not in use. It also mentions that these are still 7 car units, although no word as to when they’ll be converted to 9 car sets. https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/2022/10/25/345-7-car-diagrams-25-10-2022/

 

[43096]

According to Part Time Spotter’s blog, only 2 were out yesterday; 042 and 056, with 063 not in use. It also mentions that these are still 7 car units, although no word as to when they’ll be converted to 9 car sets. https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/2022/10/25/345-7-car-diagrams-25-10-2022/

064 is the other 7-car, not 063. They will be converted to 9-car once the need to use them into P14 at Paddington goes - i.e. when the through running starts.

 

[345 050]

According to Part Time Spotter’s blog, only 2 were out yesterday; 042 and 056, with 063 not in use. It also mentions that these are still 7 car units, although no word as to when they’ll be converted to 9 car sets. https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/2022/10/25/345-7-car-diagrams-25-10-2022/

It was 042 and 056 again tonight.

 

[Stephen42]

As the through timetable in 10 days is only 22 tph rather than the full 24tph, there should be a few spare trains initially.

Also it is normal practice to size a fleet with maintenance spares, and as none have yet gone off for heavy maintenance / refurbishment the allowance for those would also be usable at current time.

Therefore having 2 or 3 out of service for lengthening prior to full timetable in May 2023 should not require 3 class 315 diagrams.

If cannot manage without the 315s now, how will a 9% frequency increase and refurbishment float be covered in the future?

It's more they've decided not to go without the 315s. There are two standby units in the evening peak one at each of Liverpool Street and Paddington which don't do any passenger services. The initial through running timetable isn't particularly efficient so units will be used more productively when its the full 24tph.