Class 345 progress

[spark001uk]

Spoke to the 345 bods at LST the other day while I was there, they said the doors are behaving a bit strange; one single set of doors at the opposite end to travel isn't opening, it's got the tech guys scratching their hands apparently, no-one knows why it's doing it he said!

 

[traji00]

Does anyone know what the door opening policy will be with Crossrail's 345s eventually?

Are we going to have tube-style automatic opening, or Overground/NR style push button to open?

I hope they're not going to do something inconsistent like push button to open at outer stations and auto open for the tunnel with platform edge doors. Inconsistency is bad, it will only serve to confuse people unfamiliar with the line.

Happy to be corrected but I believe it is push to open except in the central tunnel (where it should be automatic opening).

 

[Wivenswold]

Just for my records, is it right that only 005 and 007 have entered service so far?

 

[Goldfish62]

Love the essay. But seriously, most of Joe public, be it half asleep after a hard day's work, or just a general jaunt, their brain is going to be listening for one word - their stop, whatever padding it has probably isn't going to matter to most people. It's concise and to the point. Like their loading model - pile on, pile off. Nice and easy.

Agree 100%. Surveys have time and time again shown that passengers prefer short announcements, which is one reason why SWT cut their announcements down to the current station, next station and destination. On mainland Europe on train announcements tend to be minimalist and that is what most people want. After all, it's passenger information, not an exercise in oratory.

 

[306024]

Spoke to the 345 bods at LST the other day while I was there, they said the doors are behaving a bit strange; one single set of doors at the opposite end to travel isn't opening, it's got the tech guys scratching their hands apparently, no-one knows why it's doing it he said!

There is a lot if software on these trains. As explained to me, once upon a time you built a train. Then someone had the idea to put a computer in that train. Now you build a computer and wrap a train around it.

And yes 005 and 007 are the only ones in traffic. TfL buy the trains once they are satisfied and they have done the 500 miles fault free running on the GE, and they then become available for MTR to use.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I see nothing wrong with the announcements on these and given Im one of the foalk who rely on them the most that surely counts for something?.

Yes the format is different but when I had the pleasure of 005 for almost the entire route the other day I never once was unsure where I was and actually quite liked the minimal waffle.

I also found seats very cumfy compared to the 700 Id ridden before and the aircon was bliss! I can't wate to do the entire route end to end!

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed, there are a few tweaks that I think are warranted but minimalist announcements are a refreshing change.

 

[LLivery]

I must say i have been on these trains a few more times now and the announcements on these trains are just awful. The voice (Emma Hignett) is very good but it is the format that is the problem.

The worst ones are once the doors are released the announcement simply says the station name. For example at Maryland it just says "Maryland" with no other words. Its the same for all stations. At the very least they could say "This is Maryland" but just saying one word sounds very random and confusing. And its certainly not good english to just blurt out one word as without any other words that station name has no meaning to it. How are people who aren't familiar with the area meant to know if this is referring to this station or the next station or the destination station. It is just awful.

And then between stations i don't like how it says for example "Next station Maryland". This is also not very good english. It should say "The next station is Maryland" or something like that.

Also i don't like how it says "Exit for" at some stations. It should be "Alight here for" instead. This sounds much clearer.

Finally i don't like how it says "Change here for London Overground and National Rail services". London Overground is a TOC and is a National Rail service so whether or not Arriva Rail London and TFL want to admit it it is exactly the same as AGA / SWT / GWR / GTR etc. So the announcements should either say "Change here for Abellio Greater Anglia , C2C , and London Overground services" or it should say "Change here for National Rail services".

If i was in charge i would have done the announcements like this:

• This train is for Shenfield. Calling at Stratford , Maryland , Forest Gate , Manor Park , Ilford , Seven Kings , Goodmayes , Chadwell Heath , Romford , Gidea Park , Harold Wood , Brentwood , and Shenfield.

• The next station is Stratford. Change here for the Central Line , Jubilee Line , Docklands Light Railway , Local Bus Services and other National Rail services. Alight here for the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park.

• We are now approaching Stratford. Change here for the Central Line , Jubilee Line , Docklands Light Railway , Local Bus Services and other National Rail services. Alight here for the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park.

• The door buttons are now activated. Please mind the gap and the step down between the train and the platform edge. This station is Stratford. Change here for the Central Line , Jubilee Line , Docklands Light Railway , Local Bus Services and other National Rail services. Alight here for the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park.

• This train is for Shenfield. Calling at Maryland , Forest Gate , Manor Park , Ilford , Seven Kings , Goodmayes , Chadwell Heath , Romford , Gidea Park , Harold Wood , Brentwood , and Shenfield.

• The next station is Maryland. Change here for local bus services.

• We are now approaching Maryland. Change Here for local bus services.

• The door buttons are now activated. Please mind the gap and the step down between the train and the platform edge. This station is Maryland. Change here for local bus services.

• This train is for Shenfield. Calling at Forest Gate , Manor Park , Ilford , Seven Kings , Goodmayes , Chadwell Heath , Romford , Gidea Park , Harold Wood , Brentwood , and Shenfield.

etc etc etc

So i think a lot of improvement is needed for these announcements.

Whilst I've made it clear I would like a bit of a change here, this is far to much. The door button activated announcement which are on the class 458s is just annoying. Announcing all calling points at every station is OTT, though having all calling points scroll across the screens without vocals like SWT do I think is better than the current line digram of three stations.

Its obvious there are local bus services at stations. The only station I know of in Greater London without a bus stop is Sydenham Hill.

TfL just hate admitting LO and Crossrail are NR services. We just aren't going to win there, no matter how reasonable the argument is, they just ignore you. Of course LO/XR are both shown on the NR app, maps, timetables, websites and is part of the ticketing/railcards. Google Maps just show the double arrow for LO/XR stations and NR branded publications don't show the TfL roundel. But TfL seem quite happy to continue with this nonsense and allow confusion (especially even more confusing for non Londoners). I've even overheard a LO staff member telling a passenger who had problem with the ticket machine basically say LO isn't a NR service, the systems are different, and maybe thats why the LO ticket machine had a problem when printing a advance ticket. Its just ridiculous.

 

[spark001uk]

...The door button activated announcement which are on the class 458s is just annoying...

You mean were on the 458s? That particular announcement hasn't been on them since they were converted to 458/5s.

 

[rebmcr]

The worst ones are once the doors are released the announcement simply says the station name. For example at Maryland it just says "Maryland" with no other words. Its the same for all stations. At the very least they could say "This is Maryland" but just saying one word sounds very random and confusing. And its certainly not good english to just blurt out one word as without any other words that station name has no meaning to it. How are people who aren't familiar with the area meant to know if this is referring to this station or the next station or the destination station. It is just awful.

That's exactly how Paris' RER does it, and TfL want it to be similar. When I've used the RER I knew exactly where I was. The Lyon trolleybus, with its full sentences of French language, was bewildering.

Also i don't like how it says "Exit for" at some stations. It should be "Alight here for" instead. This sounds much clearer.

Not for people for whom English is not their first language. London has a lot of monetary incentive to take care of tourists.

Finally i don't like how it says "Change here for London Overground and National Rail services". London Overground is a TOC and is a National Rail service so whether or not Arriva Rail London and TFL want to admit it it is exactly the same as AGA / SWT / GWR / GTR etc. So the announcements should either say "Change here for Abellio Greater Anglia , C2C , and London Overground services" or it should say "Change here for National Rail services".

The PIS is there for the use of otherwise-uninformed general public passengers. Those people don't care what category the company operates under. They care about the branding and how it is presented to them.

Overground is a separate offering to the public, and it's right that this is represented consistently across all public communication sources.

 

[D365]

Not to mention that it would be a painstaking exercise to have to rerecord the announcement samples every time a rebranding takes place.

 

[JW16]

Any idea why Spitalfields Market was chosen for its very own "exit for..." announcement approaching Liverpool Street, rather than any of the other sights/attractions in the area? (Is the market open every day of the week, for that matter?!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's exactly how Paris' RER does it, and TfL want it to be similar. When I've used the RER I knew exactly where I was.

The Metro does it this way as well; also all the Banlieuie services. Now I'm deaf and I can tell you all straight that it really is much better with just the one word.

You won't miss it; they say it twice with enough of a pause that if you miss hearing what it is the first time you know to listen out for it again.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I was hoping youd comment peter as thats 2 people to who announcements are significant for different reasons.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Spoke to the 345 bods at LST the other day while I was there, they said the doors are behaving a bit strange; one single set of doors at the opposite end to travel isn't opening, it's got the tech guys scratching their hands apparently, no-one knows why it's doing it he said!

Is there ASDO installed? If there is could it turn out to be something simple like a beacon in the wrong place?

 

[class387]

Any 345s tomorrow?

 

[LLivery]

You mean were on the 458s? That particular announcement hasn't been on them since they were converted to 458/5s.

Ah! I forgot they had changed. Haven't been on one since they've all been converted.

 

[spark001uk]

Is there ASDO installed? If there is could it turn out to be something simple like a beacon in the wrong place?

No I asked that. They've tried everything apparently, it's still unexplained!

 

[Via Bank]

I must say i have been on these trains a few more times now and the announcements on these trains are just awful. The voice (Emma Hignett) is very good but it is the format that is the problem.

OK, let's imagine I'm a visitor to the UK who doesn't speak English very well. I know a few words such as those for 'train,' 'station,' 'exit,' 'departure,' 'door,' 'please,' 'thank you,' and I know a few connecting words such as 'to' and 'and,' plus idioms such as "train to London" and "mind the gap", but aside from that I'm not confident in the English language at all.

I am at Liverpool Street, fresh off the plane, going to visit my relatives who live in Manor Park. I found the correct train by repeating "Manor Park" to a woman in a high-visibility jacket, who then showed me to the correct platform, made sure I had the correct ticket, and put me on the train. Remember: beyond a few basic phrases (which I'm not very confident with) I don't know a word of English.

The first thing I hear is this:

??? train is [four?] Shenfield. ??? ??? Stratford, Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park, Ilford, Seven Kings, Goodmayes, Chadwell Heath, Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood, Brentwood, and Shenfield.

I can, in fairness, probably work out that this is where the train is going. But I can't work out what it said at the beginning. Is this train number 4? Do trains even have numbers?

The ??? station is Stratford. ??? ??? [four?] the ??? ???, ??? ???, ??? ??? [railway?], ??? bus ??? and other ??? rail ???. ??? ??? four the ??? Elizabeth Olympic ???.

Maybe this is the next station. I think. It said a lot of other stuff, though. It talked about a bus. Do I need to get a bus? It said 'other SOMETHING rail.' Do I need to get another train? Remember, I have no idea what most of these words mean, and I've never been to London before. I'm now a little bit concerned I might be missing something important.

We ??? now ??? Stratford. ??? ??? four the ??? ???, ??? ???, ??? ??? railway, ??? bus ??? and ??? ??? Rail ???. [a light?] ??? ??? the ??? Elizabeth Olympic ???.

Uh-oh. It said something different this time. Is the next station still 'Stratford'? It didn't say 'station' that time. Is something wrong? Why is it talking about a light? Am I even going the right way?

The door ??? ??? ??? ???. Please mind the gap and the ??? ??? ??? ??? train ??? ??? ??? ???. ??? station is Stratford. ??? ??? four the ??? ???, ??? ???, ??? ??? railway, ??? bus ??? and ??? ??? Rail ???. A light ??? ??? ??? ??? Elizabeth Olympic ???.

What's it trying to tell me about the door? I know it's telling me to mind the gap (we are in London!) but what else is it telling me to mind? Something about the train? I feel like I'm missing some crucial information here.

Also, I'm jetlagged and have a pretty bad headache. The voice's incessant droning is making it worse, and it's making me doubt myself. Am I in the right train? It keeps producing long lists of places - do I need to get out here to get a train to Manor Park? I know - while the doors are still open, I'll just pop out, find another person in a high-visibility jacket, and check…

---

I hope this makes it clear why the announcements on the new trains are so concise. Much like any engineering, we have to make trade-offs in language and communications. It's crucial to provide enough information to allow people to complete their journey… but only just enough. If you provide any more, and particularly if you start using less simple words or dressing it up in flowery language, people will start getting confused. They won't feel like they're in control and that they know what's going on.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once the whole of XRail is open, will they stop at any platforms with a wide enough gap to actually need "mind the gap" announcements?

 

[Wivenswold]

@Viabank. Thank you, you've summed it up perfectly. By all means give people lots of information on the maps but the PIS information is there to alert customer to the important stuff like "Evacuate", "This station is.." and "Terminating here".

Also, as a wearer of headphones, most passengers are, it's annoying to vaguely hear what appears to be a lengthy and important message to turn down the music to find that it's not.

 

[J-2739]

Once the whole of XRail is open, will they stop at any platforms with a wide enough gap to actually need "mind the gap" announcements?

Maybe on the GWR platforms?

 

[Kite159]

Has 345001 moved this week? Seemed to be in the same spot south of Crewe as it was last week

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I very much enjoyed my journey on the 345 yesterday. The ride was so so so smooth! It was advertised as dramatically delayed, although it came on time! Boarded at Ilford - couldn't make it to Shenfield in time!

 

[class387]

OK, let's imagine I'm a visitor to the UK who doesn't speak English very well. I know a few words such as those for 'train,' 'station,' 'exit,' 'departure,' 'door,' 'please,' 'thank you,' and I know a few connecting words such as 'to' and 'and,' plus idioms such as "train to London" and "mind the gap", but aside from that I'm not confident in the English language at all.

Exactly. A good case that I'm familiar with is in Beijing, where depending on whether the line is owned by Beijing Subway or Beijing MTR, the Chinese announcements for the same same station can be:

Beijing Subway Line 1 (XIDAN):
"Welcome aboard Beijing Subway. This train travels in the direction of TIAN'ANMENXI station, WANGFUJING station. This train terminates at SIHUIDONG station. The next station is XIDAN. XIDAN is an interchange station. Passengers for Subway Line 4, please alight at the next station. XIDAN station can be overcrowded, please get ready to alight."

Beijing MTR Line 4 (XIDAN):
"The next station is XIDAN. Change for Subway Line 1."

Guess which one is easier to understand.

 

[Via Bank]

Exactly. A good case that I'm familiar with is in Beijing, where depending on whether the line is owned by Beijing Subway or Beijing MTR, the Chinese announcements for the same same station can be:

Beijing Subway Line 1 (XIDAN):
"Welcome aboard Beijing Subway. This train travels in the direction of TIAN'ANMENXI station, WANGFUJING station. This train terminates at SIHUIDONG station. The next station is XIDAN. XIDAN is an interchange station. Passengers for Subway Line 4, please alight at the next station. XIDAN station can be overcrowded, please get ready to alight."

Beijing MTR Line 4 (XIDAN):
"The next station is XIDAN. Change for Subway Line 1."

Guess which one is easier to understand.

Precisely.

The Hamburg U-bahn is similar. It simply announces the current route number and destination, and says "Nächste Halte:" on approach to each stop. No nonsense, efficient, and if you can work out that "nächste" (which sounds like 'next') means 'next,' and "Halte" (which sounds like 'halt') is stop, it's immediately clear what it means. I had no trouble navigating as someone who speaks very little German.

The double bonus is that the conciseness of the German announcements means there's space for another announcement in another language at principal stations likely to be frequented by visitors (in Hamburg there's an extra announcement in English for the benefit of tourists at Hbf and interchanges for the airport.)

 

[macaronlover]

Happy to be corrected but I believe it is push to open except in the central tunnel (where it should be automatic opening).

That's correct. It WILL be.

 

[D365]

Happy to be corrected but I believe it is push to open except in the central tunnel (where it should be automatic opening).

Surely it will be automatic opening at any underground stations with PEDs?

 

[macaronlover]

Happy to take suggestions, however bear in mind that content is controlled by TfL.

Next update will fix audio issues, remove "via Stratford" for westbound service and remove "Northern" from list of LST interchanges.

Where do I send my suggestions?

 

[macaronlover]

Surely it will be automatic opening at any underground stations with PEDs?

It will be