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Class 323 At Northern

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Class 323221

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Hi all,

Does anyone know what will happen to the Class 323s after they have moved from Birmingham to Manchester? How long will they be there for and what is likely to replace them?

Thanks
 
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RailUK Forums

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Northern has begun a procurement process for up to 450 new units (https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/0...urement-process-for-up-to-450-new-trains.html), which is supposed to be replacing their older fleet to keep a maximum fleet age of 35 years (trains from before 1990, which could potentially include the 323s)


Rail operator, Northern, is beginning the procurement process for up to 450 new trains for their network.

The Tender, which is viewable on the UK Government website, states that the objective of the tender is to enter into a framework agreement for the manufacture and supply of new trains and the associated support and spares supply.

This will allow Northern Trains Limited to withdraw and replace a significant quantity of its aging fleet.


The government document says that the framework agreement may see up to 450 units procured, though this may be across multiple call-offs.


The first call off contract will be entered into with the framework agreement and are for ‘multi-mode' multiple units

It is anticipated that the successful company will offer new rolling stock with a minimum life of 35 years and couple be converted to become electric multiple units or battery multiple units, with future phases being electric / battery powered from new.


Northern has, in the past few years, withdrawn its Pacer trains and introduced new CAF Class 195 Diesel Multiple Units and Class 331 Electric Multiple Units.

The Government document states requests to participate in the tender can be sent in up until the 25th September 2023.
Quote from Railadvent.
 

Geeves

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323s have at least another 10 to 15 years, aluminium body and refurbished traction motors will see them to the end

Current plan for 323s for Manchester is (subject to the usual)

2 x 323 - Manchester Airport - Blackpool N
2 X 323 - Wigan NW - Stalybridge
2 X 323 - Liverpool - Airport (peaks)

Picc - Hadfield/Glossop
Picc - Macc/Stoke on Trent
Picc - Hazel Grove
Picc - Crewe via Stockport/MIA

Liverpool LS - Wigan NW/Blackpool N

Think that is everywhere. No doubt they will appear on the peaks only Vic - Wigan NW via Eccles and Golborne
 

Liverpool 507

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323s have at least another 10 to 15 years, aluminium body and refurbished traction motors will see them to the end

Current plan for 323s for Manchester is (subject to the usual)

2 x 323 - Manchester Airport - Blackpool N
2 X 323 - Wigan NW - Stalybridge
2 X 323 - Liverpool - Airport (peaks)

Picc - Hadfield/Glossop
Picc - Macc/Stoke on Trent
Picc - Hazel Grove
Picc - Crewe via Stockport/MIA

Liverpool LS - Wigan NW/Blackpool N

Think that is everywhere. No doubt they will appear on the peaks only Vic - Wigan NW via Eccles and Golborne
2 x 323 being 6 car services or units working with other classes?
 

Mollman

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2 x 323 being 6 car services or units working with other classes?
I think they mean 6 car service. But they will share some routes with the 4 car and remaining 3 car (either single or pairs) 331s. Liverpool - Blackpool North is one of those that is too busy for only 3 car units but 6 cars is overkill outside special events.
 

AMD

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The introduction of ETCS into Warrington box later this decade will influence where they go in a few years time, as the 323s are not going to be upgraded with this system.
 

D365

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The introduction of ETCS into Warrington box later this decade will influence where they go in a few years time, as the 323s are not going to be upgraded with this system.
Very sensible - after all the work that was put into the 365s, for those not to be ETCS fitted!
 

plugwash

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The introduction of ETCS into Warrington box later this decade will influence where they go in a few years time, as the 323s are not going to be upgraded with this system.
What does "warrington box" cover? IIRC northern don't run any EMUs to/via warrington, though they do run them further north on the WCML.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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What does "warrington box" cover? IIRC northern don't run any EMUs to/via warrington, though they do run them further north on the WCML.
Warrington currently covers the WCML as far as a point just north of Wigan so services running that way would be affected.
 

Mollman

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What does "warrington box" cover? IIRC northern don't run any EMUs to/via warrington, though they do run them further north on the WCML.
The Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay services are worked by EMUs (I think they still exist)
 

AMD

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It's going to be the north end of the WCML that's going ETCS, along with Carlisle. The interfaces immediately that would affect 323s is anything going to Wigan or Preston. The current plan sees 323s pick up more of the Liverpool to Wigan stoppers along with Blackpool - Airports in due course, both these services involve running on part of the WCML; also eventually Wigan NW to Stalybridge is scheduled to be 323s, again the Wigan interface of the service will prevent 323s on this run when ETCS does eventually go live.
 

HammerDown154

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In my ignorance, can anyone help me with what the 323’s acquired by by Northern will be like seating wise? As in airline and 2 + 2 (sorry, I don’t know the correct phrase) and NOT like the 319 2/3 seating which I personally found awful. I ask as it seems from this thread they will see use at PFY. Thanks in advance.
 

pokemonsuper9

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In my ignorance, can anyone help me with what the 323’s acquired by by Northern will be like seating wise? As in airline and 2 + 2 (sorry, I don’t know the correct phrase) and NOT like the 319 2/3 seating which I personally found awful. I ask as it seems from this thread they will see use at PFY. Thanks in advance.
They have 3+2 seating.
 

Geeves

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The Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay services are worked by EMUs (I think they still exist)

It was cut during COVID and doesn't look like it will make a come back unfortunately. One I missed off earlier was the Liverpool stopper via the Chat Moss to Vic and Stalybridge making a return which would likely also be 323s giving a half hourly stopping service again.

Also in regards to the interiors being unsuitable it can never be as bad as this again...
 

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childwallblues

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It was cut during COVID and doesn't look like it will make a come back unfortunately. One I missed off earlier was the Liverpool stopper via the Chat Moss to Vic and Stalybridge making a return which would likely also be 323s giving a half hourly stopping service again.

Also in regards to the interiors being unsuitable it can never be as bad as this again...
The current hourly service on the Chat Moss from Lime Street all stations to Manchester Airport gets grossly overcrowded and re-instatement of two trains per hour is long overdue. There are currently some peak hour trains to Manchester Victoria but bringing back a full hourly service to Stalybridge would be welcomed and would restore the link lost when the Chat Moss was electrified back in 2015.
 

Rob F

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It was cut during COVID and doesn't look like it will make a come back unfortunately. One I missed off earlier was the Liverpool stopper via the Chat Moss to Vic and Stalybridge making a return which would likely also be 323s giving a half hourly stopping service again.

Also in regards to the interiors being unsuitable it can never be as bad as this again...
I never found the bus seated Pacers too bad. Better than a lot of the seating that replaced it.
 

Cheshire Scot

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What is the rationale for downgrading 331s to 323s on the Blackpool route?

Is it because they can run 2x3-car 323 versus 1x4-car 331?
Significantly increased seating capacity compared to a six car cl 331.
Note a 4 car 331 has less seats than a 3 car 323.
That said, experience on South Manchester routes with 3 car 323s would suggest once about 60/65% of seats are taken many people prefer to stand, congesting the doorways which means it takes longer for passengers to get on and off.

The benefit of ASDO on cl331 will be lost at any platforms which cannot take 6 car length - I know some lengthening has been done but is that all of the stations?
 

JJmoogle

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The benefit of ASDO on cl331 will be lost at any platforms which cannot take 6 car length - I know some lengthening has been done but is that all of the stations?
I can't find an actual complete source for every work but the amount of lengthening that's been happening up there has been very substantial.

Everywhere that might see a 2x323 formation is, I believe, 6 cars long now.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I can't find an actual complete source for every work but the amount of lengthening that's been happening up there has been very substantial.

Everywhere that might see a 2x323 formation is, I believe, 6 cars long now.
Probably lengthened specifically for 6 car class 323 operation.
 

childwallblues

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It was cut during COVID and doesn't look like it will make a come back unfortunately. One I missed off earlier was the Liverpool stopper via the Chat Moss to Vic and Stalybridge making a return which would likely also be 323s giving a half hourly stopping service again.

Also in regards to the interiors being unsuitable it can never be as bad as this again...
When is the Lime Street to Stalybridge via Victoria Northern stopper service to be restored please?
 

Geeves

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When is the Lime Street to Stalybridge via Victoria Northern stopper service to be restored please?

There's a whole raft of changes coming and of course I cannot find the link, other changes include cutting Wigan to Leeds back to Salford Central with a new turnback, Dec 25 looks likely as they haven't started building it yet but it ties into the new Staly to Wigan, Southport(s) put back on the Atherton line vs Bolton currently which will go to 323s.
 

AMD

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Everywhere that might see a 2x323 formation is, I believe, 6 cars long now.
Almost....
Leyton, Blackrod & Adlington are all complete ready for pairs of 323s, just Leyland awaiting completion.
Current plan is December TT change for pairs of 323s on the Blackpool - Airport run, dependant on training.
 
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