Class 321 to Scotland?

[Bletchleyite]

LM talk about Northampton-Euston a lot on their website when referring to 110mph running but don't make any reference to the Trent Valley line:

That's phase 2. Phase 1, 110mph on the Trent Valley, is already in place.

Phase 2 is a side-benefit allowing the running of two trains in the place of one in the evening peak. But that has been waiting on 12-car running because a peak 4-car set would be useless.

Lots of detail here including the two phases. Maybe I'm wrong though - it does put a lot of weight on the Rugby and places south bit.
http://www.northamptonrug.org.uk/documents/pdf/111021 Project 110 SLC Consultation Documents.pdf

Neil

 

[Aictos]

Well the 7 x 321s for Scotrail are actually going to come from Thameslink Great Northern (not London Midland) according to Rail, so possibly some of the 319s being freed up off Thameslink which aren't going to Northern are going to take the place of 321s?

I doubt that the Class 319s will see use on the Great Northern as it would mean drivers and fitters having to be trained up on them which might not be cost effective.

Might be easier and more cost effective to just cascade the London Midland Class 321s as mentioned by Captain Deltic.

I don't think any cl444 clones will ever be built, the design is over 10 years old and it would require much re-engineering to meet current regs. The cl380s were meant as a halfway house between the traditional Desiro and the cl700s, with reductions in weight, (lard-butts as Roger Ford called them), better door cycling times, (compared to Electrostars Desiro 'classic' is very slow) and improvements to the interiors and air con, train management etc...

More interestingly is where the 321s are coming from in May 2015. Whilst LM has been quoted by sources, including Modern Railways, the 350/3s were always intended to augment the LM fleet not as replacements. Whereas in May 2015 the Shenfield and WA Inner services transfer to TfL, so I wonder if as Abellio GA is a parent company to Abellio Scotrail, whether swaps within that fleet involving 317s and 321s might be on the cards to free units up?

To be pedantic, Abellio Greater Anglia is NOT a parent company to Abellio Scotrail but rather sister companies, it's like London Midland, TSGN and South Eastern are all sIster TOCS.

 

[Wolfie]

To be pedantic, Abellio Greater Anglia is NOT a parent company to Abellio Scotrail but rather sister companies, it's like London Midland, TSGN and South Eastern are all sIster TOCS.

Correct. Of course Northern is a half-sister.....

 

[northwichcat]

Might be easier and more cost effective to just cascade the London Midland Class 321s as mentioned by Captain Deltic.

I doubt it. You won't easily get 323s or 350s released to LM without incurring costs at Northern or TPE and if LM get replacement 321s then another operator (Thameslink Great Northern, Anglia or Northern) will incur costs.

 

[jopsuk]

If they were going to go through with a heavy refurbishment of 321s- full AC, new seating, wifi, power points, new traction- an interesting idea would have been to send them all to GA with the 360s then being available. GNs 321s will obviously be available in a few years anyway with the 700s coming in

 

[Aictos]

I doubt it. You won't easily get 323s or 350s released to LM without incurring costs at Northern or TPE and if LM get replacement 321s then another operator (Thameslink Great Northern, Anglia or Northern) will incur costs.

Well I very much doubt that GTR will send their 321s to Abellio Scotrail and have a micro fleet of 319s to cover until the 700s arrive, it don't make sense.

Especially with training costs having to ensure all GN depots were trained up on 319s, far better to lose the LM 321s to go to Scotland or if 377s are available then use them instead as 377s will be used on the GN in.a few years.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you sure about that on Scottish routes? I've seen southbound Scottish TPE services arrive at Preston with very high loadings and only a small proportion of them getting off at Preston

I think the Scottish services are a bit different, but most of the TPE trains have healthy loadings across the network with the busiest bit being between Leeds/Sheffield/Preston and Manchester. The Scottish trains getting 1/3 and 2/3 doors is a consequence of TPE operating them using inter-operating trains.

It's all a compromise.

 

[northwichcat]

A post on wnxx by Tony Miles says Modern Railways probably couldn't get definite confirmation of exactly where the 321s for Scotrail were going to come from prior to the deadline for articles for the latest edition.

 

[SC318250]

Just a thought but what about all Thamselink 321 units going to Scotrail eventually if the deal was right, plus the London Midland eventually which would allow all Cathcart services to be operated by 4 cars, which could also operate Lanark services

 

[me123]

Just a thought but what about all Thamselink 321 units going to Scotrail eventually if the deal was right, plus the London Midland eventually which would allow all Cathcart services to be operated by 4 cars, which could also operate Lanark services

I do wonder about Lanark going 321, but the current rush hour services are already 6-cars and limited stop. I wonder if 4 might be a bit short at those times (although I've never been on these trains so can't make a fair comment).

Could be that they'd simply run these alongside 320s on North Clyde/Argyle runs. I imagine that training drivers on 321s is relatively easy when they've already had the 320 training. And I can think of a handful of 320/318 diagrams that run as 3-cars that could do with strengthening, but where 6-cars would perhaps be overkill (these are often the services that run just either side of the peak).

And I do wonder about the possibility of 7-car trains (although the platform extension work required hasn't really been mentioned anywhere, so I suspect that isn't likely to happen, at least in the short-term.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Alastair Dalton, the Scotsman's transport correspondent, has tweeted:

Looks like some additional class 321s will fill in for class 380s switched to the electrified main Edinburgh-Glasgow line from other routes

ScotRail Class 380 trains to run on main Edinburgh-Glasgow line when electrified in 2016 before new Hitachi fleet 1 yr later: @transcotland

Since the Hitachi stock won't be ready in time for the wires it makes sense to use the next closest stock on the route so that there wouldn't be any reduction in quality.

 

[clc]

Alastair Dalton, the Scotsman's transport correspondent, has tweeted:





Since the Hitachi stock won't be ready in time for the wires it makes sense to use the next closest stock on the route so that there wouldn't be any reduction in quality.

The ITT stated:

"It is required that a 7 23m car electric train operates (or an electric train of equivalent length which delivers the required capacity for the service) in each direction in each peak period by December 2016.

Phased introduction during 2017 - the ScotRail franchise will require that new electric trains be introduced to the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High route, including 7 23m car formations, with an all electric fleet in place by December 2017."

It'll be interesting to see how quickly the number of electric services is increased during the phased introduction. It's possible that for most of 2017 only a couple of electric services will operate each day.

 

[Class377/5]

No 319s are going to GN. There isn't any off lease not spoken for until 2016.

 

[thealexweb]

Alastair Dalton, the Scotsman's transport correspondent, has tweeted:





Since the Hitachi stock won't be ready in time for the wires it makes sense to use the next closest stock on the route so that there wouldn't be any reduction in quality.

What about the Dunbar and North Berwick services? What will they run with if they lose their 380s? If anything one additional EMU is needed on Saturdays.

 

[Techniquest]

No 319s are going to GN. There isn't any off lease not spoken for until 2016.

Any hints as to when we'll find out what's going where? I'm guessing it'll be a while, I'm mostly curious for trip planning purposes in 2015.

As for the topic of this thread, I really do hope LM don't send their 321s away! As unlikely as it may seem today, let's not forget it was only earlier this year when many people were rolling their eyes at the suggestion of HSTs heading to Scotland after retiring from front line squadron service on the Western and the Eastern (I forget which forum members didn't see it as likely, or which thread it was off the top of my head), yet Abelio plan to take HSTs for Scottish services! So even something that seems unlikely now may well happen yet.

After all, it's still reasonably possible in several years time 350s will end up working Birmingham to Hereford services. It seems incredibly unlikely as things stand today, and the image in my head of a 350/3 rolling into Hereford's platform 1 is quite interesting (as is the image of a 377/1 working a Cardiff to Manchester service, but let's not go there or let the imagination run away with me!), but who knows what will be going on by November 2024? It's always a possibility the wires will at least reach Worcester or Great Malvern by then, or at least it'll be announced as happening. After all, Bromsgrove to Worcester isn't that far and it could happen!

321s going up to Scotland would definitely persuade me to get up there again quickly!

 

[jopsuk]

I'll admit to checking for flying pigs when I saw the Scotrail HST announcement

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll admit to checking for flying pigs when I saw the Scotrail HST announcement

Wessies to Scotland by air?

Neil

 

[Scotrail84]

Hi all,

Just read from the scot-rail forum that someone heard from WNXX that there is 7 Class 321 units to be cascaded north in December 2015. Im guessing for North Berwick or Dunbar runs or maybe even being downgraded to 320 spec. Does anyone know anything about this?

Unless they can be conductor operated and have a minimum of 4 coaches then there's no chance of the bit in bold happening

 

[Class 170101]

Class 321s operate with conductors as required (as well as DOO) and are 4 car trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 321s operate with conductors as required (as well as DOO) and are 4 car trains.

LM's all carry guards/conductors - LM does not have any DOO at all - not even the Stourbridge shuttle PPM!

Neil

 

[me123]

I'd definitely be inclined to think that the North Berwick services will be 321 operated then. 380s to Ayrshire/Inverclyde often operate in 6-7 car diagrams and it probably wouldn't be easy to add 321s into the mix, although perhaps they'll see some service on the 4-car diagrams?

However, North Berwicks are almost entirely self-contained (aside from the through-running to Ayr that's been introduced as of late, which I suspect wouldn't be missed if it needed to be dropped) and the route operated quite well with 322s for some time. Still, we'll probably never hear the end of it from the North Berwick line users if they get downgraded back to what they had before (I somehow doubt that they'll be able to tell the difference between 322s and 321s - understandably).

 

[causton]

LM's all carry guards/conductors - LM does not have any DOO at all - not even the Stourbridge shuttle PPM!

Neil

Technically...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P62868/2014/11/16/advanced

This service, and the one before it that runs Watford to Euston, are operated by LM technically, and are DOO technically...

In reality the journey is subcontracted out to London Overground (why? I have no idea. A throwback to when both were Silverlink?)

Yes, it is a bit odd!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P62868/2014/11/16/advanced

This service, and the one before it that runs Watford to Euston, are operated by LM technically, and are DOO technically...

In reality the journey is subcontracted out to London Overground (why? I have no idea. A throwback to when both were Silverlink?)

Yes, it is a bit odd!

Didn't know that - I assumed those were either actual LO services, or LM services on the mainline. Never been up late enough to use one!

I think those exist (as they are bustituted north of Watford) to allow all lines to be available for engineering works. Though we can't be far off the south WCML being done and an 01whatever to MKC being reinstated on a Saturday evening, surely?

Neil

 

[Class 170101]

Good luck asking NR to reduce maintenance time.

Doesn't this train sometimes run on the DC lines to / from Watford Jn anyway?

Additionally Silverlink had no depot south of Bletchley doing mainline work at weekends as I recall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good luck asking NR to reduce maintenance time.

Doesn't this train sometimes run on the DC lines to / from Watford Jn anyway?

It always does I believe, and is operated by LO using LO stock on behalf of LM. (LM have no stock with third rail capability, the shoes have been taken back off the 350/1s).

Neil

 

[Scotrail84]

I'd definitely be inclined to think that the North Berwick services will be 321 operated then. 380s to Ayrshire/Inverclyde often operate in 6-7 car diagrams and it probably wouldn't be easy to add 321s into the mix, although perhaps they'll see some service on the 4-car diagrams?

However, North Berwicks are almost entirely self-contained (aside from the through-running to Ayr that's been introduced as of late, which I suspect wouldn't be missed if it needed to be dropped) and the route operated quite well with 322s for some time. Still, we'll probably never hear the end of it from the North Berwick line users if they get downgraded back to what they had before (I somehow doubt that they'll be able to tell the difference between 322s and 321s - understandably).

Plus it would mean having to train a depot of around 300 drivers and guards on new traction only for North berwicks or Dunbar services. No chance.

 

[Class 170101]

It always does I believe, and is operated by LO using LO stock on behalf of LM. (LM have no stock with third rail capability, the shoes have been taken back off the 350/1s).

Neil

Indeed I was suggesting that sometimes the train sometimes runs on the AC vice DC lines using the 378s.

 

[tom1649]

No chance.

Happened before with the 322s didn't it? How about the period of Class 90 operation in 2004/5? If you go even further back, the same happened with the 305s when the branch was first electrified. On that basis I wouldn't say there was no chance.

 

[59CosG95]

I remember reading in Modern Railways (Oct. 14) that the 321s were to be used around Glasgow, perhaps coupled to 320s.

 

[387star]

Shocking LM 321s still have an as built interior so hopefully they will go to Scotland rather than the FCC inherited units