Class 321 to Scotland?

[ginge8991]

Hi all,

Just read from the scot-rail forum that someone heard from WNXX that there is 7 Class 321 units to be cascaded north in December 2015. Im guessing for North Berwick or Dunbar runs or maybe even being downgraded to 320 spec. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[petersi]

Sounds a bit early for any of the GN units. Class 700 and 377 not due on GN until late 2016/2017

 

[jopsuk]

There's seven at London Midland- but I didn't think there was any plan for them to lose them?

 

[swt_passenger]

There's seven at London Midland- but I didn't think there was any plan for them to lose them?

It's been suggested in the past, but then again I'm 99% certain LM said that was definitely not the case, I think they'd asked for 7 more 350s to replace the 321s but had been turned down by DfT.

I think it might be in an old Modern Railways article, I'll see if I can find it tomorrow...

 

[edwin_m]

Might LM's 350/3s allow them to release a couple of 321s?

 

[MCR247]

It's been suggested in the past, but then again I'm 99% certain LM said that was definitely not the case, I think they'd asked for 7 more 350s to replace the 321s but had been turned down by DfT.

I think it might be in an old Modern Railways article, I'll see if I can find it tomorrow...

I'm 90% sure that the London Midland press release at the time when the 350/3 (and /4) order was announced said that these were purely for additional capacity and that no trains would be leaving them

 

[Kristofferson]

I'd be gutted if LM got rid of their 321s. Travel on one every day, and they're much more comfortable than the sealed sardine can 350s.

Having said that, I'd rather take a 350 long distance (in 1st!)

 

[causton]

Can 350s run on the Abbey line though?

 

[plastictaffy]

The Dusties at LM are supposed to be there til end of franchise. They are currently the only traction they have (that the drivers that sign the route sign) which are passed for use on the Abbey branch. 350's are no good for this due to sighting issues on the branch AIUI.

 

[IanXC]

A little bit of an outlandish possibility... But if some/all 323s were replaced by 319s at Northern West, then 323s could release 321s from London Midland...

 

[Old Hill Bank]

A little bit of an outlandish possibility... But if some/all 323s were replaced by 319s at Northern West, then 323s could release 321s from London Midland...

Not sure how it will work but LM (or it's replacement) will need more EMUs for Chase line. I dont see the 350/4s being released by TPE in time for that.

 

[sprinterguy]

A little bit of an outlandish possibility... But if some/all 323s were replaced by 319s at Northern West, then 323s could release 321s from London Midland...

Fairly outlandish: There aren't enough 350 diagrams solely in the West Midlands to allow seven 323s to take over. If you put 323s anywhere else, then they would be away from LMs' primary maintenance facility for the class and you'd have to train other crews on them.

 

[Kristofferson]

Also... 323s, ugh. No thanks, you can keep them, Birmingham

 

[Silverlinky]

I believe that 350's are now ok to be used on the Abbey Line.....just they aren't doing so yet!
The rumour of 7x321's can only mean the LM ones surely?

Wouldn't surprise me if TPE have got a bit fed up with the reliability of the /4's and are sending them back early.

Anything moving around has to be tied up by March 2016 when LM goes to Directly Operated.

 

[MCR247]

Wouldn't surprise me if TPE have got a bit fed up with the reliability of the /4's and are sending them back early.

Somehow I don't think it would be quite that easy

 

[plastictaffy]

Anything moving around has to be tied up by March 2016 when LM goes to Directly Operated.

So how do you know that it's going to be Directly Operated when no-one at my place seems to know that for sure??

 

[12CSVT]

The Dusties at LM are supposed to be there til end of franchise. They are currently the only traction they have (that the drivers that sign the route sign) which are passed for use on the Abbey branch. 350's are no good for this due to sighting issues on the branch AIUI.

Aren't 150s cleared for the Abbey branch any more ? They've worked this line under Silverlink.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Aren't 150s cleared for the Abbey branch any more ? They've worked this line under Silverlink.

LM only have three of them. One maintenance/hot spare, one for Bedford-Bletchley, one for Birmingham-Hereford. Which one should run on the Abbey line? What could replace it on the current work that cannot run on the electrified Abbey line?

 

[Class 170101]

Silverlink used the Bletchley one on Sundays as there are no Bletchley to Bedford services on Sunday. As far as crewing was concerned, I believe, two drivers were used. One driver drove the train and the other conducted the other driver as he / she knew the route but not the traction.

 

[Starmill]

A little bit of an outlandish possibility... But if some/all 323s were replaced by 319s at Northern West, then 323s could release 321s from London Midland...

Cue a hell of a lot of whining from Mancunians, not least this one!

 

[NotATrainspott]

What work needs to be done to the 321s to make them fully TSI-PRM compliant? The ScotRail ITT demanded that all stock cascaded to run on the network must be fully compliant before entering service.

 

[MCR247]

Same as the 320s maybe - with the universal toilet being the biggest part?

 

[jopsuk]

On the "where will they come from?"

AGA have 94, with as far as I know no slack in the fleet. Reducing the length of trains on the Great Eastern would be unacceptable. They don't have any new stock being introduced on those services any time soon.

Great Northern have 13. In a few years time they'll be replaced by 700s and 377s. But not in the time frame proposed.

Northern have 3, so we can discount those.

LM have 7, as discussed.

On similar units, there's 6 317/7 sitting around in storage- though for any long term use elsewhere they'd really need completely stripped out and refitted.

 

[47802]

On the "where will they come from?"

AGA have 94, with as far as I know no slack in the fleet. Reducing the length of trains on the Great Eastern would be unacceptable. They don't have any new stock being introduced on those services any time soon.

Great Northern have 13. In a few years time they'll be replaced by 700s and 377s. But not in the time frame proposed.

Northern have 3, so we can discount those.

LM have 7, as discussed.

On similar units, there's 6 317/7 sitting around in storage- though for any long term use elsewhere they'd really need completely stripped out and refitted.

What about a temp cascade of 319's replacing some 321's on GN, given there are 29 387's to be delivered, but there is only 14 319's going to Northern at the moment.

 

[petersi]

What about a temp cascade of 319's replacing some 321's on GN, given there are 29 387's to be delivered, but there is only 14 319's going to Northern at the moment.

I dought its worth the expense of driver training

 

[47802]

I dought its worth the expense of driver training

Maybe not but where else are they going to come from? maybe unavoidable, how much driver training would be needed? I wouldn't have thought there is a massive difference between a 319 and a 321.

 

[BlythPower]

Surely 321s would be a bit on the old side for Scotland. I thought they only ever got brand new units up there?

 

[jopsuk]

What about a temp cascade of 319's replacing some 321's on GN, given there are 29 387's to be delivered, but there is only 14 319's going to Northern at the moment.

The 321s work in formations of up to three units. Unless 319s and 321s can happily work together, replacing some 321s with 319s would likely overcomplicate diagrams (unless ALL of the 321s were replaced).

It would almost make more sense to replace LMs 321 fleet with 319s if you were going down that route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
will 321s likely be able to work (perhaps with some fiddling) with 320s for 7-car formations? Impression I've got is that 317-322 don't all happily work with one another despite being of very similar design.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have 3, so we can discount those.

Unless the 322s get reclassified as a sub-class of 321s?

Although, Metro have a guarantee that the Metro stock (144s, 155s, 10x158s, 321/9s and 333s) will remain in West Yorkshire until at least the end of the current franchise (which DfT have extended to Feb 2016.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A little bit of an outlandish possibility... But if some/all 323s were replaced by 319s at Northern West, then 323s could release 321s from London Midland...

Would need to be a lot of changes to allow that, because

1. Apparently there are some platforms on the Glossop line which have platforms around 75m in length - long enough for a 323 but not a 319.
2. Apparently the 319s can't match the 323 timing on some routes. A proposed solution to that is for the 319s to become 3 car (to reduce weight) and be re-engineered but then a 319 would be smaller than a 323.
3. Apparently there are no plans to train Piccadilly crews on 319s until the next franchise and the 323 routes are Piccadilly crew routes, so someone would have to fund extra crew training.

The 321/4s don't actually have significantly more standard class seats than 323s (some 323s even have more than some 321/4s) but the 323s lack First Class, so I think LM taking on 317s or 319s would be a much simpler solution.

 

[Qwerty133]

It'll have to be LM, and mainly from WM services eg:all 350s removed and maybe 323s on the abbey line.
I mean cant do anything that'll negitively affect the south east.