Class 321 to Scotland?

[fgwrich]

There is a press briefing on the ScotRail forum / website at the moment which contains the following for the ScotRail franchise.

- HSTs will indeed receive power doors
- 158 fleet will be refurbished
- 156 fleet refreshed and continue to be used on Stranraer and Carlisle/Dumfries services
- the 7 321s heading to Scotland at the end of next year will be used on Glasgow suburban services
- Hourly high speed service between Inverness and Perth (and on to either Glasgow or Edinburgh) by 2019

So they will be changed to work in Glasgow as 4 Car EMUs, Possibly modified to 320 standard.

 

[jon0844]

It'll have to be LM, and mainly from WM services eg:all 350s removed and maybe 323s on the abbey line.
I mean cant do anything that'll negitively affect the south east.

I thought the Abbey Line was actually operated by Northern, as it seems to be the one line where it's okay to run ageing rolling stock down here!

 

[Nym]

I thought the Abbey Line was actually operated by Northern, as it seems to be the one line where it's okay to run ageing rolling stock down here!

What about the services run by 321s on the 'mainline' on a morning and evening and during the day on Tring services?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the Abbey Line was actually operated by Northern, as it seems to be the one line where it's okay to run ageing rolling stock down here!

321s are modern compared to the Northern DMUs, or even compared to what stock LM use on Bedford to Bletchley.

 

[Pugwash]

On the "where will they come from?"

AGA have 94, with as far as I know no slack in the fleet. Reducing the length of trains on the Great Eastern would be unacceptable. They don't have any new stock being introduced on those services any time soon.

Great Northern have 13. In a few years time they'll be replaced by 700s and 377s. But not in the time frame proposed.

Northern have 3, so we can discount those.

LM have 7, as discussed.

On similar units, there's 6 317/7 sitting around in storage- though for any long term use elsewhere they'd really need completely stripped out and refitted.

If anything AGA could do with more of them to create make all 12 car trains in the peak, some of the services are 8 carriage, demand on this line is only going one way and that is up.

AGA also need some slack to allow for refurbishment of the current fleet. Sending these 321's to Scotland seems short sighted.

 

[jon0844]

What about the services run by 321s on the 'mainline' on a morning and evening and during the day on Tring services?

Do those trains still have route planners from the early 2000s in them? The 321 on the Abbey line does seem to be a rather special case.

 

[jopsuk]

321s are modern compared to the Northern DMUs, or even compared to what stock LM use on Bedford to Bletchley.

I'm not sure he was being entirely serious... even ignoring the Chiltern bubble car services and Island line, the South has the oldest units, with 313s operating on the inner great northern and on the south coast (older than Mersey Rail's 507/508 fleet), 455s at Southern and SWT and 317s at Great Northern and AGA all being as old or older than Class 150 and Class 142.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure he was being entirely serious... even ignoring the Chiltern bubble car services and Island line, the South has the oldest units, with 313s operating on the inner great northern and on the south coast (older than Mersey Rail's 507/508 fleet), 455s at Southern and SWT and 317s at Great Northern and AGA all being as old or older than Class 150 and Class 142.

If you count Island Line as a subsidiary of SWT then Merseyrail have the oldest fleet, with London Overground having the youngest fleet. I wonder what difference it would make if Isle of Man railways were counted as North West railways opposed to non-British.

Given Merseyrail are expected to get new trains in the new few years, while SWT, Govia Thameslink, East Coast and First Great Western will all get brand new trains it looks like as things stand at the end of CP5 Northern and ATW will be vying for the title of oldest fleet.

 

[Tibbs]

What about the services run by 321s on the 'mainline' on a morning and evening and during the day on Tring services?

Ugh, what awful train seats! They're wierdly canted back with a base so low it puts even my knees up near my ears and I have really stumpy legs.

Not to mention the knee knocking 3x3 seating and ridiculous 'table'.

I do feel sorry for the commuters for whom 321s represent the 'good train'. I always chose to wait for the next service out of Euston than get on one.

Please, send them away from us!

 

[jopsuk]

If you count Island Line as a subsidiary of SWT then Merseyrail have the oldest fleet, with London Overground having the youngest fleet. I wonder what difference it would make if Isle of Man railways were counted as North West railways opposed to non-British.

Given Merseyrail are expected to get new trains in the new few years, while SWT, Govia Thameslink, East Coast and First Great Western will all get brand new trains it looks like as things stand at the end of CP5 Northern and ATW will be vying for the title of oldest fleet.

But these things are cyclical. In the late 80s/early 90s Regional Railways had an (on average) much newer fleet than NSE thanks to the huge numbers of Sprinters, Super Sprinters and Pacers!

 

[northwichcat]

But these things are cyclical. In the late 80s/early 90s Regional Railways had an (on average) much newer fleet than NSE thanks to the huge numbers of Sprinters, Super Sprinters and Pacers!

I'm not really sure why you made a 'the South has the oldest units' claim. jonmorris0844 made a valid point - LM run a fleet of mainly modern trains but it sounded like he forgot about the older 150s running between Bedford and Bletchley.

According to Network Rail the shelf life of an EMU is 35-40 years, while for a DMU it is 25-30 years so 313s built in 1976 aren't necessarily in need of replacement any more than the 142s or 150s. I think the majority of slam door EMUs got withdrawn before they were 40 years old, with the 421s being an exception. However, 421s on the Lymmington branch in 2010 was nothing compared to 47 year old 101s on Manchester-Marple in 2003, before they got replaced by 19 year old Pacers.

Anyway back to Scotland getting 321s.

 

[bramling]

I'm not really sure why you made a 'the South has the oldest units' claim. jonmorris0844 made a valid point - LM run a fleet of mainly modern trains but it sounded like he forgot about the older 150s running between Bedford and Bletchley.

According to Network Rail the shelf life of an EMU is 35-40 years, while for a DMU it is 25-30 years so 313s built in 1976 aren't necessarily in need of replacement any more than the 142s or 150s. I think the majority of slam door EMUs got withdrawn before they were 40 years old, with the 421s being an exception. However, 421s on the Lymmington branch in 2010 was nothing compared to 47 year old 101s on Manchester-Marple in 2003, before they got replaced by 19 year old Pacers.

Anyway back to Scotland getting 321s.

I would imagine it has to be some of the Great Northern 321s. Looking ahead, as things stand they would probably be the first to be displaced. Currently there are 3 AM peak services booked to be formed of 2x317 which require selective door opening. I can't see this being fitted to the 365s or 321s, unless Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton platforms get lengthened in that time.

 

[Class 170101]

Is it selective door opening for Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth?

I thought the units were just locked out of Use starting from Cambridge and only came into service by being unlocked at Royston.

 

[jopsuk]

That's what I thought as well, don't think the 317s have any form of SDO.

 

[Kristofferson]

I do feel sorry for the commuters for whom 321s represent the 'good train'. I always chose to wait for the next service out of Euston than get on one.

I'm the opposite - I wait for the 321 in the morning, instead of cramming onto the "sealed sardine can" Desiro that turns up before. The fresh air is much better than the ineffective aircon. Also, I prefer the 321 sound...

 

[bramling]

Is it selective door opening for Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth?

I thought the units were just locked out of Use starting from Cambridge and only came into service by being unlocked at Royston.

My understanding is they have a very basic form of SDO that allows the rear unit to be effectively locked out of use by operation of some kind of switch in one of the cabs, without having to walk through the train and 'lock' each set of doors individually. Certainly if any other type of train operates these three services, (e.g. 2x365) the train will non-stop the three stations in question.

I presume this 'mod' was introduced as these morning services used to be booked to join at Royston, which used to cause chronic unreliability right in the middle of the am peak.

 

[Silverlinky]

So how do you know that it's going to be Directly Operated when no-one at my place seems to know that for sure??

Finally found it on the go-ahead website as part of their interim management statement.....

"The franchise will continue on its original contract terms for the remainder of the year, and will begin a seven-month extension on the same terms in September 2015. We look forward to working with the DfT regarding a potential direct award contract from March 2016 to June 2017"

 

[3141]

Finally found it on the go-ahead website as part of their interim management statement.....

"The franchise will continue on its original contract terms for the remainder of the year, and will begin a seven-month extension on the same terms in September 2015. We look forward to working with the DfT regarding a potential direct award contract from March 2016 to June 2017"

Directly operated - a company is run by Directly Operated Railways, a DfT company set up to run things when a franchisee withdraws or gets terminated.

Direct Award - a franchise is extended beyond its last scheduled date by means of a contract awarded directly by the DfT to the franchisee, and not put out to tender.

 

[Tibbs]

I'm the opposite - I wait for the 321 in the morning, instead of cramming onto the "sealed sardine can" Desiro that turns up before. The fresh air is much better than the ineffective aircon. Also, I prefer the 321 sound...

You must have a great chiropractor to be able to sit in those seats every day!

 

[59CosG95]

UPDATE: Captain Deltic's Rolling Stock roundup in this month's Modern Railways shows the 7 LM 321s WILL be moving to Scotland, for services around Glasgow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

UPDATE: Captain Deltic's Rolling Stock roundup in this month's Modern Railways shows the 7 LM 321s WILL be moving to Scotland, for services around Glasgow.

What does LM get in exchange? Or does that mean no additional stock, which would mean adding the extra peak train per hour (fast LBZ-Bletchley-MKC-Northampton at xx49 I believe) becomes infeasible?

Neil

 

[158722]

What does LM get in exchange? Or does that mean no additional stock, which would mean adding the extra peak train per hour (fast LBZ-Bletchley-MKC-Northampton at xx49 I believe) becomes infeasible?

Neil

At a guess, Northern get a few extra 319s to replace a similar number of 323s, which in turn go to LM to replace the soon to be 5 class 350 diagrams on Wolves-Walsall diagrams.

 

[Wolfie]

UPDATE: Captain Deltic's Rolling Stock roundup in this month's Modern Railways shows the 7 LM 321s WILL be moving to Scotland, for services around Glasgow.

Hey, perhaps they can be used to release the Scotrail 314s which being three car trains are ideal for Northern in the North West according to some on here!

Northern like old trains....

 

[Old Hill Bank]

At a guess, Northern get a few extra 319s to replace a similar number of 323s, which in turn go to LM to replace the soon to be 5 class 350 diagrams on Wolves-Walsall diagrams.

Add into the equation the EMU requirement when Chase Line gets wired.

 

[northwichcat]

At a guess, Northern get a few extra 319s to replace a similar number of 323s, which in turn go to LM to replace the soon to be 5 class 350 diagrams on Wolves-Walsall diagrams.

DfT would have to fund crew training of Piccadilly crews on 319s it there's any chance of Northern releasing 323s. Northern's Direct Award only budgeted for some Victoria and Lime Street crews to be trained on 319s and they don't sign the electrified routes out of Piccadilly.

 

[158722]

Add into the equation the EMU requirement when Chase Line gets wired.

I've made the comment several times that its seems logical that all of Northern's 323s could be transferred to LM - to displace the 321s, to cover extra turns required to cover extensions of the wires to Bromsgrove, Chase line and eventually (Leamington?)-Coventry-Nuneaton and provide a little extra capacity. Northern's fleet are just about the right number to cover all these options.

The usual reply to this has been about the ability of the 319s to keep to 323 timings, especially to Hadfield and on the Stoke run, but hey, lets see...

 

[Bletchleyite]

At a guess, Northern get a few extra 319s to replace a similar number of 323s, which in turn go to LM to replace the soon to be 5 class 350 diagrams on Wolves-Walsall diagrams.

That'd work, and would mean the whole LM south WCML service would use coupling compatible units, which I imagine would make diagramming much easier.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The usual reply to this has been about the ability of the 319s to keep to 323 timings, especially to Hadfield and on the Stoke run, but hey, lets see...

How tight are the Hadfield turnarounds? Could they just slacken the timetable?

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

How tight are the Hadfield turnarounds? Could they just slacken the timetable?

No turnaround at Glossop as they do a Manchester-Glossop-Hadfield-Glossop-Manchester circular route, similar to the Merseyrail Wirral line services.

Around 5 minutes turnaround at Piccadilly.

Slackening the timetable would need an additional unit, which would increase leasing costs and consequently increase the subsidy.

 

[158722]

How tight are the Hadfield turnarounds? Could they just slacken the timetable?

Neil

Very tight 4-5 mins at Piccadilly and 3mins (generally) at both Hadfield and Glossop, to maintain what looks to be 3 diagrams to cover the 30min frequency off-peak turns during most of the day, with a 4th unit out in both peaks where frequency is more or less 20mins.

Even if the 319s were allowed an extra 2mins in each direction, this would make the current diagrams unworkable, hence an extra unit would be required. So, yes, it could be done with 319s, but would require an extra unit.

EDIT: That said, I see services are booked 31 mins from Piccadilly to Glossop or Hadfield, but either 36/37 mins on the return back into PIccadilly. A couple of 'charter' minutes could be removed perhaps to compensate for the slower 319s? Anyone care to comment on how much more time a 319 would require compared with a 323?

 

[northwichcat]

3mins (generally) at both Hadfield and Glossop

Don't forget there's the train has to reverse at both Glossop and Hadfield. 3 minutes dwell time is usually what Northern provide on any route if a reversal is required. For example, Wakefield Westgate to Huddersfield services are stopped for 3 minutes at Wakefield Kirkgate.