Class 317 future

[D365]

Unfortunately the new traction equipment proved to be unreliable hence they are now going to withdraw them at the end of the decade:cry:

Like I've said before, that's because Angel Trains have not put any more money into the demonstrator.

 

[edwin_m]

Like I've said before, that's because Angel Trains have not put any more money into the demonstrator.

Probably because with the surfeit of class 31x unit, they don't expect them to be in use for more than a few years.

 

[jon0844]

When it appeared cheaper to buy new trains than refurbish old ones, I guess ROSCOs perhaps got a little concerned. It's fine to do up some old trains, but not necessarily all of them and have loads that nobody will want.

I assume ROSCOs have a pretty good idea of the needs for the future and will factor that in. So 321s are getting done, but 317s just won't be worthwhile.

I don't know if the weakened pound will change the way of thinking about rolling stock in the future, but assume that ROSCOs and banks will be expecting our current financial situation not to be permanent and are looking at the bigger picture.

 

[Be3G]

Now if only LO could get around to sorting out their own small 317 fleet, we might be at the point where generally the condition of trains in my local area is actually mildly pleasant.

LO are likely to do very little to their 317s given the replacements are on order

Whilst that's potentially true, they've spruced up a few 315s with new seat covers etc. so I'd hope that work could extend to the 317s too!

Albeit a year after the posts above, I stumbled across a London Overground class 317 yesterday on the Chingford line. It'd been given a deep clean and all seat fabric had been replaced with the London Overground moquette, à la the class 315s. What did surprise me though was that the former first class area had been retained, complete with sliding doors. Those seats had been reupholstered too so it was overall quite a strange sight seeing spacious 2+1 seating with armrests all in LO livery!

As a side note which I admit is better suited for another area of this forum: aware of how bad one's life can be made for sitting in a first class area of a train without a first class ticket, I very nearly didn't sit there. No matter that I'm experienced with railway ticketing, knew LO didn't ever offer first class, and after carefully checking could see no first class signs up anywhere by the doorway to the ‘special’ area of the train. No wonder some people sometimes get confused over whether parts of a train are first class or not; basically, it came down to whether or not there was a small sticky label stuck to the door saying it was first class.

 

[Class455]

What I was thinking about, was sending them either to Wales, or to Southern for Metro services alongside the 455's. Another thing I was thinking of was that the 317/6's move to South West Trains, and be reclassified as 455/9's, as they are quite similar to the Phase 2 Class 455's, and the 455/8's move to Southern, resulting in all 74 Class 455/8's being with Southern, but this is very unlikely, as much as I would love to see this.

 

[physics34]

What I was thinking about, was sending them either to Wales, or to Southern for Metro services alongside the 455's. Another thing I was thinking of was that the 317/6's move to South West Trains, and be reclassified as 455/9's, as they are quite similar to the Phase 2 Class 455's, and the 455/8's move to Southern, resulting in all 74 Class 455/8's being with Southern, but this is very unlikely, as much as I would love to see this.

Very unlikely. ?! Lol

 

[Mordac]

As someone who's never travelled in one of these units, can someone enlighten me as to why everyone seems to be going all misty-eyed over what as far as I can see are just some mediocre commuter EMUs?

 

[43096]

What I was thinking about, was sending them either to Wales, or to Southern for Metro services alongside the 455's. Another thing I was thinking of was that the 317/6's move to South West Trains, and be reclassified as 455/9's, as they are quite similar to the Phase 2 Class 455's, and the 455/8's move to Southern, resulting in all 74 Class 455/8's being with Southern, but this is very unlikely, as much as I would love to see this.

You do realise that 455s are 750V DC and 317s are 25kV AC, don't you? They are fundamentally different electrically even if they look similar from a bodyshell perspective. Class 150/2s look similar as well...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You do realise that 455s are 750V DC and 317s are 25kV AC, don't you? They are fundamentally different electrically even if they look similar from a bodyshell perspective. Class 150/2s look similar as well...

Now there's an idea... turn them all into 210s!

 

[F Great Eastern]

The same time there will be the 317s coming on the market there will be 30 or so 379s 21 360s and 100 321s freed up.

Scrapyard is their only destiny.

 

[43096]

Now there's an idea... turn them all into 210s!

If they have 6-cylinder Valentas like 210001, that gets my vote!!!!

 

[samuelmorris]

I anticipate all the 317s to be withdrawn by 2021 with no further use to be honest. If 100mph is desired, there'll be 120 spare 321s by then which will have almost a decade on the 317s and many may well be refurbished to a high standard, some may even have been re-tractioned. If 75mph will do, the 315s are in better condition with their recent TfL refresh and to my knowledge post far better MTIN figures, are about the same age and are probably less likely to suffer corrosion issues moving forward. Failing that, I refer to the previous 321s argument.

The only possible survivors are the 317/6 fleet but again, there is just such a vast quantity of other stock ahead in the queue by that stage. it will be almost criminal to scrap even any PEP units (excluding the 508s already gone) before the Pacers, let alone Mk3 EMUs, but there's every chance it could happen if the pace of electrification continues to slacken.

 

[SPADTrap]

As someone who's never travelled in one of these units, can someone enlighten me as to why everyone seems to be going all misty-eyed over what as far as I can see are just some mediocre commuter EMUs?

You're wrong I tell you! Wrong!

 

[bramling]

You're wrong I tell you! Wrong!

From a passenger perspective, I like them. Personally I find them more comfortable than both 319s and 321s.

The 317/6s looked superb when they emerged from refurbishment in the 1990s. It's a shame they have been neglected since.

 

[Tracked]

Went on one from Kings Cross to Stevenage in February, I think if they'd clean them up inside they'd be alright, no better than 319's/321's though. This one was that awful beige colour the XC voyagers are inside, there was a loose panel at the end of the carriage, and a bit of a mess. It was on a Sunday night, but it compared badly to the 365 I'd travelled into London Village from earlier in the day.

 

[306024]

As someone who's never travelled in one of these units, can someone enlighten me as to why everyone seems to be going all misty-eyed over what as far as I can see are just some mediocre commuter EMUs?

Not everyone is going all misty-eyed. I'm with you, having made the mistake of travelling in the motor coach of a 317 on the Cambridge Main Line today.

Despite the drivers best efforts it struggled with the rail conditions and was significantly late. However it was the noise from the electrical equipment, not just the motors, that was awful. Good trains in their day but that day is drawing to an end.

 

[muddythefish]

The 317s are dreadful, only marginally worse than the 319s. Like the 319s though, I'm sure they'll be regarded by the London-based DfT as fine for carting northern peasants around.

 

[D365]

Like the 319s though, I'm sure they'll be regarded by the London-based DfT as fine for carting northern peasants around.

Right, so despite the fact that a whole tranche of brand new stock is on order, you still feel that's not enough?

 

[keith1879]

As someone who's never travelled in one of these units, can someone enlighten me as to why everyone seems to be going all misty-eyed over what as far as I can see are just some mediocre commuter EMUs?

I've been asking myself why I feel that it is wrong to scrap them. The answer (I think) is that they were delivered when I was an adult - so they seem modern. Objectively they are at the end of their design life - and to put it in subjective terms they are older than the LNER Shenfield electrics would have been when the 317s were delivered ...if they hadn't already been replaced.

 

[A0]

The 317s are dreadful, only marginally worse than the 319s. Like the 319s though, I'm sure they'll be regarded by the London-based DfT as fine for carting northern peasants around.

As someone who used the 317s on a daily basis some years back, I always liked them - much nicer than either the 319s or 321s which had different seats and I never found the as comfortable.

Clearly the 317s are getting on a bit now - the oldest ones are at least 5 years older than either the 319s or 321 - and they compare poorly with modern EMUs such as the 350s.

Are they life-expired? Probably not - and enough of the 'poor old north getting old stock palmed off on them' - back in the 1980s when the DMU fleets across the north were being modernised into London's terminals you had early 1st gen DMUs into Paddington and Marylebone - carrying far more people than services to York, Leeds or Manchester were, and EMUs on the Southern dating from the 1950s.

Currently the oldest stock in regular use on the network is on London commuter routes and Merseyrail - the PEP derived EMUs - and both have plans afoot to replace.

The 319s are being set to work on a couple of very specific routes where there are no other EMUs available and despite being a similar age to the Sprinters or Pacers they are replacing, they are vastly better in terms of capacity, passenger environment and performance.

Around the general area the 319s are working you also have newer EMUs, specifically the 323s in the Manchester area and 350s operating for both TPE and London Midland serving Manchester and Liverpool respectively.
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I anticipate all the 317s to be withdrawn by 2021 with no further use to be honest. If 100mph is desired, there'll be 120 spare 321s by then which will have almost a decade on the 317s and many may well be refurbished to a high standard, some may even have been re-tractioned. If 75mph will do, the 315s are in better condition with their recent TfL refresh and to my knowledge post far better MTIN figures, are about the same age and are probably less likely to suffer corrosion issues moving forward. Failing that, I refer to the previous 321s argument.

The only possible survivors are the 317/6 fleet but again, there is just such a vast quantity of other stock ahead in the queue by that stage. it will be almost criminal to scrap even any PEP units (excluding the 508s already gone) before the Pacers, let alone Mk3 EMUs, but there's every chance it could happen if the pace of electrification continues to slacken.

A little hyperbole there - the PEP EMUs were designed for short-distance commuter services - they're unlikely to be Pacer replacements in many cases.

Two of the PEP classes are DC only - given the current standard for mainline electrification is 25kV AC, how would you propose those units were re-deployed even if electrification weren't being delayed? Clue, before you come up with a crayonista solution, don't forget the 442s are at the front of the queue for 'crazy ideas for the re-use of surplus 3rd rail EMUs'.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The 317s are dreadful, only marginally worse than the 319s. Like the 319s though, I'm sure they'll be regarded by the London-based DfT as fine for carting northern peasants around.

Perhaps you might be prepared to fund London area season ticket prices to purchase appropriate stock - be prepared for a wad of cash in that case. 317's though boxy and old are solid units and good workhorses.

 

[A0]

Perhaps you might be prepared to fund London area season ticket prices to purchase appropriate stock - be prepared for a wad of cash in that case. 317's though boxy and old are solid units and good workhorses.

I think he's just worried they'll be set to work on his pet crayonista scheme for a reopened Peterborough to Northampton and Rugby line.

He shouldn't worry about that though - the 317s along with the current and next gen EMUs will be long gone if that ever gets reopened....

 

[samuelmorris]

A little hyperbole there - the PEP EMUs were designed for short-distance commuter services - they're unlikely to be Pacer replacements in many cases.

Two of the PEP classes are DC only - given the current standard for mainline electrification is 25kV AC, how would you propose those units were re-deployed even if electrification weren't being delayed? Clue, before you come up with a crayonista solution, don't forget the 442s are at the front of the queue for 'crazy ideas for the re-use of surplus 3rd rail EMUs'.

You've misunderstood, no crayonista here - well aware the units could never be replacements for pacers in almost any case, it's simply a point of principle - given the comparative quality of the stock, especially post-TfL refresh, all the 315s having been scrapped while pacers, even if in reduced number, are still running on the network would be a travesty, even if a necessary one. The situation is, however, what it is. I don't really see a future for any EMU numbered below 319 beyond the early 2020s.

 

[D365]

I don't really see a future for any EMU numbered below 319 beyond the early 2020s.

The Class 318s will still be in service

 

[samuelmorris]

Wasn't sure about those - aware they'll outlive the 314s by a fair few years, but don't know how many. I wasn't sure if they might potentially end up being ousted in 2023 if the second batch of 385s happens. I realise 10 units is only really an expansion rather than replacement, but it isn't too far fetched to see that increased to 31 and have a bit more fleet standardisation take place.

 

[D365]

However they're going to be made 2020 compliant, and basically now a common fleet with the Class 320 and 320/4.

 

[Clansman]

Scotrail will most likely do an Anglia and replace the entire fleets of 318/320s and maybe 334s with brand new common fleet of suburban trains; of which will probably displace the unsuitable 385s on the Cathcart Circle to be used to strengthen services in the Central belt.

 

[bramling]

Scotrail will most likely do an Anglia and replace the entire fleets of 318/320s and maybe 334s with brand new common fleet of suburban trains; of which will probably displace the unsuitable 385s on the Cathcart Circle to be used to strengthen services in the Central belt.

Is there any real burning need to replace these fleets though?

Allegedly they will be disability compliant if not already so, and there's a plentiful source of extra units available in the form of the class 321s (and 317/6s if necessary). If these units could be leased cheaply then it allows the fleet size to be expanded more than would otherwise be the case, which is beneficial for passengers.

 

[D365]

There is a plan to do that eventually (replace the Class 318/320 fleets along with the Cathcart 385s to be cascaded), however I don't think that the 334s will be on the move.

 

[Class455]

You do realise that 455s are 750V DC and 317s are 25kV AC, don't you? They are fundamentally different electrically even if they look similar from a bodyshell perspective. Class 150/2s look similar as well...

Can't they be converted if needs be? The 319's both have a 25kV AC and 750V DC power.