Class 317 future

[D365]

Indeed soon there will be plenty of scrap for the scrapman

More sightseeing to do outside Rotherham!

 

[87015]

Only until the Aventras are in service.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple kept on for the Upminster for as long as the GA ones remain at Ilford.

 

[DasLunatic]

I hear they're bound for AGA. All they need changing externally is a repaint on the doors and a change of the logo transfers.

Does that mean more will be heading down the GEML to Chelmsford and points east?

 

[D365]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple kept on for the Upminster for as long as the GA ones remain at Ilford.

Which won't be very long, London Overground have an option for additional Class 710s anyway.

 

[bramling]

Indeed soon there will be plenty of scrap for the scrapman

Shame - the 317s aren't bad trains at all.

Personally I find them more comfortable than 319s and 321s.

The units refurbished by WAGN have a particularly nice interior, so hopefully these - if not the earlier series - may find some further use. Goodness knows where though, we could do with a few new small low-cost electrification schemes!

 

[MatthewRead]

I wish they wouldn't scrap the 317's if it wasn't for the new rolling stock and lack of electrification they could have a life extension

 

[bramling]

I wish they wouldn't scrap the 317's if it wasn't for the new rolling stock and lack of electrification they could have a life extension

I think most users would have been happy with new stock on the Norwich-London service, more diesels (in one form or another), and a good refurbishment and follow-up presentational maintenance for the 317s/321s/360s. The cascade of the GN units, plus maybe the ex Overground 317s, seemed like a good opportunity to, for once, actually have enough EMUs to lengthen every conceivable peak / shoulder-peak service.

Unfortunately, I bet in a few years we find Anglia is short of stock again (or a few 321s get retained as a rump fleet, like happened with London Midland).

 

[Chris125]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple kept on for the Upminster for as long as the GA ones remain at Ilford.

Romford-Upminster will be operated by 710s, as confirmed on twitter.

 

[D365]

I wish they wouldn't scrap the 317's if it wasn't for the new rolling stock and lack of electrification they could have a life extension

What, spending more than 1/3 of the cost of a new unit so that they last, at best, ten years longer? Not to mention that Greater Anglia are already stretching their fleet to the limit and would never be able to get them all refurbed in time for 2020.

Unfortunately, I bet in a few years we find Anglia is short of stock again (or a few 321s get retained as a rump fleet, like happened with London Midland).

They could have ordered ten new units to replace every existing one, and you would still find something to criticise :roll:

 

[Harbornite]

Send them to EMR Kingsbury and stick them with the 373s, a la Vic Berry.

 

[jon0844]

The units refurbished by WAGN have a particularly nice interior, so hopefully these - if not the earlier series - may find some further use. Goodness knows where though, we could do with a few new small low-cost electrification schemes!

The 317/6s refreshed by AGA look bloody good too, and so do some of the other 317s. VERY nice seats in first class in particular.

Perfectly serviceable trains for a few more years yet.

 

[D365]

Perfectly serviceable trains for a few more years yet.

The /6s might be well fitted out, but I bet you they're pretty knackered mechanically, especially the remaining the units from the original batch.

 

[43096]

Which won't be very long, London Overground have an option for additional Class 710s anyway.

And there is a "drop dead" date of 31/12/19 anyway as I don't believe they are PRM-TSI compliant.

 

[D365]

And there is a "drop dead" date of 31/12/19 anyway as I don't believe they are PRM-TSI compliant.

Oh believe me, we're very aware of that here.

Dispensations, dispensations, dispensations.

 

[43096]

Oh believe me, we're very aware of that here.

Dispensations, dispensations, dispensations.

DfT seem to be adamant there will be no derogations for non compliant stock from 01/01/20 though...

 

[jon0844]

The /6s might be well fitted out, but I bet you they're pretty knackered mechanically, especially the remaining the units from the original batch.

Yes, quite possibly but I am sure you could sacrifice a few units to fix the others and build a pretty reliable fleet. They won't be around forever, but I don't think they're dead yet.

If the body shells are still okay, you can probably do a radical overhaul if necessary. If the cost of building new trains rockets due to our weakening pound, refurbishing old stock may become more popular again - after a massive splurge on new stock of late.

 

[D365]

Yes, quite possibly but I am sure you could sacrifice a few units to fix the others and build a pretty reliable fleet. They won't be around forever, but I don't think they're dead yet.

If the body shells are still okay, you can probably do a radical overhaul if necessary. If the cost of building new trains rockets due to our weakening pound, refurbishing old stock may become more popular again - after a massive splurge on new stock of late.

Don't forget that they're not much younger than the 'PEP' type units, which are known to have their... quirks.

Can't say that I've heard much recently about the demonstrator unit 317722 lately.

 

[Astradyne]

Oh believe me, we're very aware of that here.

Dispensations, dispensations, dispensations.

Dispensations are given for minor infringements, not because someone could not be bothered to meet the deadline.

 

[47802]

Yes, quite possibly but I am sure you could sacrifice a few units to fix the others and build a pretty reliable fleet. They won't be around forever, but I don't think they're dead yet.

If the body shells are still okay, you can probably do a radical overhaul if necessary. If the cost of building new trains rockets due to our weakening pound, refurbishing old stock may become more popular again - after a massive splurge on new stock of late.

Thing is where would they go given the number of units that will become spare besides the 379's and 360's where are even the 365's and the heavily upgraded 321's going to go? never mind the remaining fleet of 321's and 319's.

 

[jon0844]

And there is a "drop dead" date of 31/12/19 anyway as I don't believe they are PRM-TSI compliant.

Well, that changes things if that's the case. Chances are it won't be economically viable to make them compliant, so goodbye.

No bloody way should anyone extend the deadline which has been known about for YEARS!

 

[bramling]

They could have ordered ten new units to replace every existing one, and you would still find something to criticise :roll:

Unfortunately this is based on bitter experience.

Virtually every TOC which has had new trains in the last decade or two has found themselves short at some point or other.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The /6s might be well fitted out, but I bet you they're pretty knackered mechanically, especially the remaining the units from the original batch.

All other things being equal, I wouldn't have expected the GN units, at least, to be too bad mechanically. For at least the last ten years they've had a pretty easy life -- not much weekend work, and some pretty gentle weekday diagrams including some which only do one trip.

 

[D365]

I suppose that Greater Anglia wouldn't be taking them on if they were absolute wrecks.

Well, that changes things if that's the case. Chances are it won't be economically viable to make them compliant, so goodbye.

You've had quite the change in heart

 

[jon0844]

You've had quite the change in heart

Yes, if that's the case then unfortunately they're NOT good for a number of years extra. I wouldn't want trains that aren't accessible being used just because they're nice.

Of course, if they were made compliant then I'd revert to my original thinking.

Accessibility is important to me. Not because I currently need such things, but because I have family and friends that do (and one day I might too), and appreciate the importance of these new rules (but for some time wondered why the industry was given SO long to get things in order).

 

[D365]

Of course, if they were made compliant then I'd revert to my original thinking.

Unlikely to happen when they're in need of a significant overhaul under the solebar, and a glutton of younger 321s going spare. Like I said earlier, there's not been much progress with regards to 317722.

Funnily enough, I just stepped off a 317. Solid but not spectacular is my consensus; I won't miss them as much as I will the 365s.

 

[MatthewRead]

Unlikely to happen when they're in need of a significant overhaul under the solebar, and a glutton of younger 321s going spare. Like I said earlier, there's not been much progress with regards to 317722.

Funnily enough, I just stepped off a 317. Solid but not spectacular is my consensus; I won't miss them as much as I will the 365s.

Well you know about all the trouble 317 722 has been suffering with it's new traction equipment don't you. That's why they won't use it in service unless it's absolutely necessary

 

[D365]

Well you know about all the trouble 317 722 has been suffering with it's new traction equipment don't you.

Angel Trains are not going to put any more money into it unless they somehow manage to secure a new lease on the 317s.

 

[bramling]

Angel Trains are not going to put any more money into it unless they somehow manage to secure a new lease on the 317s.

Chiltern electrification could, on paper, have provided a good home for a good number of 100 mph EMUs.

The trouble is it isn't happening, and I'm not sure old EMUs would be politically acceptable on that route. In any event, this doesn't really help the 317s because there are still a good number of newer 321s which look like they're going to be spare.

The only other suitable scheme would be Cardiff Valleys, albeit they're not perfect for start/stop work. That scheme seems to have gone quiet too.

 

[Phil.]

Getting the access rights to allow a fleet of units to get the extra 10mph is a pain in the botty.

you have to prove the safety case now, that extra 10mph will mean higher impact speeds etc, regearing of the motors - in the case of 317,319 the g315bz traction motor, do they need extra cooling etc, how much power will be dragged out the overheads to get them to this speed how long will they be able to stay at 110 etc

the 110mph that the LM 350's have allows them to slot in between the pendos on the old lines when on crewe jobs..it took alot of time, research by LM, Hitatchi and the LM front seaters ,it has paid off.

for the extra 10mph 317 - 321 u need to be able to prove crashworthiness for all in the unit, motors can handle the extra power etc, braking, vehicle ride. etc etc

all of the old BR traincrews know that the original 317/1 fleet were more than capable of tonning up, im unsure of the class 317/1, the 319 & 321 speed records im sure some of the old school front seaters will know the records and will i suspect tell you what they could get out of some of units..

Even 310s could be taken off the clock, they had a design speed of 75mph, easily could do 90's and lets face it all of us who remember them especially on LMR, some of the old girls could do it..others could only handle 75..

same with dmmus, ive been at least 100 in some flying meccano,

in the same way HSTS could easily outrun 125 and are governed, all fleets can exceed their built and current design speeds, it is not done now...as if anything happens, then speeding will always become a factor in any incident.

but in todays culture you dont go over the exact speed of the unit..

its not just about regearing and lobbing bigger pads on the brakes.

Which DMMUs are you talking about?

 

[jopsuk]

GA have said they will have 27 units (which is the current GA 317/5 plus the GN 317/1 fleet added together if you're fond of maths, three units more than the 317/6 fleet) modified to be 2020 compliant. I'd guess it will be absolute bare minimum, so toilet, door controls and PIS.

 

[Brian Aylott]

GA have said they will have 27 units (which is the current GA 317/5 plus the GN 317/1 fleet added together if you're fond of maths, three units more than the 317/6 fleet) modified to be 2020 compliant. I'd guess it will be absolute bare minimum, so toilet, door controls and PIS.

Is this so - and not some of the 321s?
Brian