Class 317 future

[Grumpy]

For at least the last ten years they've had a pretty easy life -- not much weekend work, and some pretty gentle weekday diagrams including some which only do one trip.

Which begs the question as to how it can possibly make economic sense to spend money buying new units to replace them.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Once the South Wales Mainline is electrified, they can be used by Arriva Trains Wales for local stoppers between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Just a possible idea! They could also be used on the Cardiff Valley lines if they actually confirm plans to wire those up too!

 

[J-2739]

Once the South Wales Mainline is electrified, they can be used by Arriva Trains Wales for local stoppers between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Just a possible idea! They could also be used on the Cardiff Valley lines if they actually confirm plans to wire those up too!

Eww. Why take them when the likes of 360s and 379s would be available to secure?

 

[Domh245]

Eww. Why take them when the likes of 360s and 379s would be available to secure?

£££ - Unless the ROSCOs are really desperate to get 360s and 379s back into service, the 317s would almost certainly be cheaper to lease and operate.

 

[MatthewRead]

Eww. Why take them when the likes of 360s and 379s would be available to secure?

The 360's are meant to be heading to London Midland and the 379's are supposedly heading to the East Midlands franchise for use on the Corby line post electrification.

 

[D365]

The 360's are meant to be heading to London Midland and the 379's are supposedly heading to the East Midlands franchise for use on the Corby line post electrification.

Sources please.

There's also 17x 323, 21x 365, 10x 350/4, possibly the six ex-Heathrow 360/2s (LM is not going to need all of them) and the refurbished 321s coming off Greater Anglia which will be far more desirable.

 

[J-2739]

£££ - Unless the ROSCOs are really desperate to get 360s and 379s back into service, the 317s would almost certainly be cheaper to lease and operate.

Cheaper= Liable to break down easier, way past sell date, etc.

But I see your good point.

The 360's are meant to be heading to London Midland and the 379's are supposedly heading to the East Midlands franchise for use on the Corby line post electrification.

I actually suggested the use of 379s on the Corby line on the MML Electrification thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sources please.

There's also 17x 323, 21x 365, 10x 350/4, possibly the six ex-Heathrow 360/2s (LM is not going to need all of them) and the refurbished 321s coming off Greater Anglia which will be far more desirable.

Nice pun!

 

[47802]

The 360's are meant to be heading to London Midland and the 379's are supposedly heading to the East Midlands franchise for use on the Corby line post electrification.

Those are fairly obvious assumptions to make, but do they actually have any factual basis?

The Valley lines my go light rail.

As for the justification for replacing them, presumably less maintenance, reduced fuel costs, higher reliability, new air conditioned trains for the punters, costs of making the old trains compliant, good deals on new stock at the moment etc.

 

[Class 170101]

The 360's are meant to be heading to London Midland and the 379's are supposedly heading to the East Midlands franchise for use on the Corby line post electrification.

Sources please.

There's also 17x 323, 21x 365, 10x 350/4, possibly the six ex-Heathrow 360/2s (LM is not going to need all of them) and the refurbished 321s coming off Greater Anglia which will be far more desirable.

I get the impression the ROSO wants the 323s at LM which would be idal for suburban services around irmingham including the newly Electrfied Rugeley Trent Valley route to Birmingham.

The 350/4s would be ideal for strengthening 110mph LM WCML services.

Beyond that I would agree sources please for your comments regarding 360s / 379s. 379s heading to the MML seem to be pure speculation, in any event as far as I am aware they are not yet capable of 110mph.

317s and 321s would also be available to LM bidders if they wanted them I expect given AGA have declared surplus to requirements by early 2020s.

 

[43074]

Those are fairly obvious assumptions to make, but do they actually have any factual basis?

The Valley lines my go light rail.

As for the justification for replacing them, presumably less maintenance, reduced fuel costs, higher reliability, new air conditioned trains for the punters, costs of making the old trains compliant, good deals on new stock at the moment etc.

Not sure about the 360 rumour but the 379 to Corby idea is one which has certainly been discussed within the industry... nothing concrete though, and there will probably be nothing official until the new East Midlands franchise competition has been completed.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 379s on the mml was suggested in a Route Study. But I can't remember the exact wording. Could be units such as the class 379. As when Corby is electrified that is between the franchise holder and the ROSCO. Refurbished 317s may be preferred. Back to thier routes. Or maybe 442s hauled by class 91s. Will grab my coat.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 379s on the mml was suggested in a Route Study. But I can't remember the exact wording. Could be units such as the class 379.

The East Midlands route study (current) and the East Midlands RUS (previously), don't mention rolling stock type in this detail, searching on 377, 379, etc finds nothing.

However the various CP5 enhancement plans do mention stock types.
In March 2014 the original had:
"Class 377 up to 12 cars, multiple pantographs (London to Corby);"

In March 2015 the update included:
"For Corby 2017 the train service should be limited to 2 services per hour, 12-car EMU Class 377/387 or equivalent"

The latest Sept 2016 version is:
"The Midland Main Line electrification project will include an assumption for passenger rolling stock of 12 car class 377 or class 350 trains or their derivatives, and will carry out the infrastructure works associated with this rolling stock."

The bit 'or their derivatives' covers just about anything...

 

[edwin_m]

It's basically just defining the train length and the performance assumptions made in any journey time modelling. Basically any of the post-privatisation EMU families could meet the requirement, but a 317 possibly couldn't because of its lower acceleration.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's basically just defining the train length and the performance assumptions made in any journey time modelling. Basically any of the post-privatisation EMU families could meet the requirement, but a 317 possibly couldn't because of its lower acceleration.

Precisely. Many of the examples I can find, and not just for the MML, are written as 'assumptions' - just like the GW electrification which assumed 319s not that long ago.

I just found an earlier draft of CP5 projects, from 2013, and it included 323s in the potential stock on the MML...

 

[317 forever]

Much as I liked the article on 317s in Today's Railways magazine, including several liveries they have carried, it was sad to reflect on their likely withdrawal ca 2020. Expecially as some older plainer stock like 313s and maybe 314/15s could still be around. Even 319s are not as nice a ride as 317s.

 

[D365]

Expecially as some older plainer stock like 313s and maybe 314/15s could still be around. Even 319s are not as nice a ride as 317s.

Won't the Class 314 and 315 fleets have been fully withdrawn by then?

 

[317 forever]

Won't the Class 314 and 315 fleets have been fully withdrawn by then?

While I know of some new stock for Abellio ScotRail, Greater Anglia, London Overground and CrossRail, I thought the ScotRail stock was just for electrification and potential expansion; also some 315s could go to Cardiff if the Valley lines are electrified. Hence my belief that some 314s and 315s could still be around.

 

[Mordac]

While I know of some new stock for Abellio ScotRail, Greater Anglia, London Overground and CrossRail, I thought the ScotRail stock was just for electrification and potential expansion; also some 315s could go to Cardiff if the Valley lines are electrified. Hence my belief that some 314s and 315s could still be around.

No, the 385s will also replace all 314s. And by the time the valley lines are actually electrified, there'll be a lot more modern EMUs than the 315s around.

 

[317 forever]

No, the 385s will also replace all 314s. And by the time the valley lines are actually electrified, there'll be a lot more modern EMUs than the 315s around.

Good progress in Scotland! And yes, the Valley lines could use current Abellio Greater Anglia stock for example.

 

[jopsuk]

by the time the Valleys are electrified we'll be shaving with the 315s

 

[D365]

And yes, the Valley lines could use current Abellio Greater Anglia stock for example.

If any secondary lines are actually electrified on time, I imagine that the (refurbished) 321s will be flavour of the week.

 

[bramling]

Won't the Class 314 and 315 fleets have been fully withdrawn by then?

In theory yes, although they seem to have nine lives, given the number of times they've been planned for withdrawal yet have somehow managed to survive!

 

[D365]

In theory yes, although they seem to have nine lives, given the number of times they've been planned for withdrawal yet have somehow managed to survive!

What do you mean? Replacement of the Class 314s by 385s and the Class 315s by Classes 345/710 was always the idea. I don't think that there were any earlier plans to start withdrawal of the 'PEP' fleets.

 

[bramling]

What do you mean? Replacement of the Class 314s by 385s and the Class 315s by Classes 345/710 was always the idea. I don't think that there were any earlier plans to start withdrawal of the 'PEP' fleets.

I'm sure I recall it was planned for the 314s to have been withdrawn by now, perhaps by the 380s.

 

[physics34]

unless converting them to diesel was economical, i see no reason to keep 314s and 315s...or of course the GN 313s, especially as the rest of the GWR electrification is on hold.. They would need heavy refurbishment, and besides there is no other work around for them. They are destined for the scrapyard.
You would hope the 317s have a bit more life left in them, but especially the older ones, they will not be far behind the 313-315s on route to be torched.

 

[CosherB]

unless converting them to diesel was economical, i see no reason to keep 314s and 315s...or of course the GN 313s, especially as the rest of the GWR electrification is on hold.. They would need heavy refurbishment, and besides there is no other work around for them. They are destined for the scrapyard.
You would hope the 317s have a bit more life left in them, but especially the older ones, they will not be far behind the 313-315s on route to be torched.

No, no, no .......

 

[physics34]

No, no, no .......

Probably more economical than the D-train scheme

 

[D365]

Probably more economical than the D-train scheme

or any of our hare-brained 442 ideas?

 

[antharro]

I've always thought the 317s were the best of their "bunch" (313/315/317). I used to use them semi-regularly to and from Broxbourne and always preferred them over the 315s. And I believe at one point one of them was re-tractioned with regen brakes added as a potential life extension?

 

[MatthewRead]

I've always thought the 317s were the best of their "bunch" (313/315/317). I used to use them semi-regularly to and from Broxbourne and always preferred them over the 315s. And I believe at one point one of them was re-tractioned with regen brakes added as a potential life extension?

Unfortunately the new traction equipment proved to be unreliable hence they are now going to withdraw them at the end of the decade:cry: