Class 317 future

[MrPIC]

Hi all, does anyone know whether the refurb/re-tractioning of 317-722 was successful? Are there plans along the lines of 321 "Renatus" for class 317's?
Thanks

 

[bramling]

Hi all, does anyone know whether the refurb/re-tractioning of 317-722 was successful? Are there plans along the lines of 321 "Renatus" for class 317's?
Thanks

I think it would depend on what the longer terms plans are for the class.

The London Overground fleet will become redundant in a few years, as will the handful at Great Northern.

If it is decided that the whole fleet gets concentrated on West Anglia for the foreseeable future, the answer could be yes.

Being the oldest of the AC fleets (barring the 313s/315s), they could well start finding themselves off-lease if electrification schemes get pared back. Shame if so, as they're not a bad train - especially the refurbished 2+2 examples. The earlier units have a more solid interior than the classes 319/321, albeit with the interior finishes appearing a little dated.

 

[muddythefish]

317s, like the 319s and 321s, are very dated now and need a complete makeover to modern standards. As they stand though, I'm sure they'll be fine for Northern.

 

[507 001]

317s, like the 319s and 321s, are very dated now and need a complete makeover to modern standards. As they stand though, I'm sure they'll be fine for Northern.

I wondered how long it would take for Northern to be mentioned

 

[jon0844]

Although a very basic refresh (no accessible toilet, Wi-Fi, power sockets etc) the 317/6s on AGA look really nice.

The seats are really comfortable, especially in first.

 

[edwin_m]

Most AC units need to spend a fair amount of time on main lines where top speed and acceleration is at a premium, so the WCML and GWML need 110mph fleets for the main commuter duties. Perhaps the GEML will too so shorter distance services can fit between "Norwich in 90" workings on the two-track sections. Where this isn't so, predominantly MML and ECML, will be covered by the Crossrail fleet. The AC network doesn't really have the equivalent of those DC routes where units like 455s can potter around the suburbs without getting in the way of anything else.

Hence I don't see much future for an AC unit that can't run about 100mph, has fairly poor performance and comfort relative to newer fleets, and isn't really suitable for conversion to a high density layout. There are likely to be enough newer 319s and 321s around to cover all this type of duty.

 

[AM9]

.... Where this isn't so, predominantly MML and ECML, will be covered by the Crossrail fleet. ....

Did you mean the Thameslink (as in class 700) fleet?

 

[SC318250]

Could be a cheap option for Scotrail for electrifying East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock by converting them to 3 car 317 similar to 318, if These lines could be electified in similar method to Paisley Canal

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Could be a cheap option for Scotrail for electrifying East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock by converting them to 3 car 317 similar to 318, if These lines could be electified in similar method to Paisley Canal

They can't. East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock need a conventional electrification scheme for clearance and power supply reasons.

 

[jopsuk]

there's a fair few WAML services that could do with being longer- 4s that could be 8s, 8s that could be 12s.

But if they're to spend many more years on Cambridge services I'd like to see them given much more than a cosmetic makeover. We'll see what the winning bidder for the next franchise wants to do, but as a sometime passenger I'd like to see the "do max" option of air conditioning, power sockets throughout, wifi and AC retractioning. They absolutely require accessible toilets to be fitted. A full new interior to a single specification (rather than the four variants there are currently!) similar to the 379s would be ideal.

Could even go crazy and do a mark 2 version of the proposed plug doors trialled on the 455s!

There's currently 56 allocated to AGA, a further 26 split between 12 with GN and 14 with LO.

It's not entirely clear what some of the future holds. Crossrail 2 will take the inner West Anglia, with Hertford East looking even more incongruous within the WA operation.

 

[zn1]

Getting the access rights to allow a fleet of units to get the extra 10mph is a pain in the botty.

you have to prove the safety case now, that extra 10mph will mean higher impact speeds etc, regearing of the motors - in the case of 317,319 the g315bz traction motor, do they need extra cooling etc, how much power will be dragged out the overheads to get them to this speed how long will they be able to stay at 110 etc

the 110mph that the LM 350's have allows them to slot in between the pendos on the old lines when on crewe jobs..it took alot of time, research by LM, Hitatchi and the LM front seaters ,it has paid off.

for the extra 10mph 317 - 321 u need to be able to prove crashworthiness for all in the unit, motors can handle the extra power etc, braking, vehicle ride. etc etc

all of the old BR traincrews know that the original 317/1 fleet were more than capable of tonning up, im unsure of the class 317/1, the 319 & 321 speed records im sure some of the old school front seaters will know the records and will i suspect tell you what they could get out of some of units..

Even 310s could be taken off the clock, they had a design speed of 75mph, easily could do 90's and lets face it all of us who remember them especially on LMR, some of the old girls could do it..others could only handle 75..

same with dmmus, ive been at least 100 in some flying meccano,

in the same way HSTS could easily outrun 125 and are governed, all fleets can exceed their built and current design speeds, it is not done now...as if anything happens, then speeding will always become a factor in any incident.

but in todays culture you dont go over the exact speed of the unit..

its not just about regearing and lobbing bigger pads on the brakes.

 

[387star]

Wow those refurbished 317/6s look great

They used to have carpets from memory

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do 317s have the compressors etc., in the pan car like the 321s or is it awkwardly placed in the intermediate trailer like on 319s? If the former, I could see them being useful in 3/6-car formations for Northern. Especially as they already have unit end gangways...

 

[DasLunatic]

Do 317s have the compressors etc., in the pan car like the 321s or is it awkwardly placed in the intermediate trailer like on 319s? If the former, I could see them being useful in 3/6-car formations for Northern. Especially as they already have unit end gangways...

Indeed. Even more so if they're compatible with their 319s and 323s.
Could 317s with their pans down couple up with Sprinters? Or would the extra weight be too much load on the engine?

 

[DJH1971]

I wondered how long it would take for Northern to be mentioned

Well, they will need more EMU's when Manchester-Preston and Preston-Blackpool is wired.

 

[Bungle965]

Although a very basic refresh (no accessible toilet, Wi-Fi, power sockets etc) the 317/6s on AGA look really nice.

The seats are really comfortable, especially in first.

Yes i recently got to travel in the first class and it is very comfortable, im sure they have used the same seats in the refurb 321`s as well.
But any way im getting off topic.

 

[MrPIC]

Do 317s have the compressors etc., in the pan car like the 321s or is it awkwardly placed in the intermediate trailer like on 319s? If the former, I could see them being useful in 3/6-car formations for Northern. Especially as they already have unit end gangways...

Compressor in one of the DTOS/C, apparently they used to have two compressors, one in each end coach. Only thing special about the trailer is the toilets.

 

[muddythefish]

Wow those refurbished 317/6s look great

They used to have carpets from memory

Yes, it's a retrograde step in my view to take the carpets out. The refurbished 365s on the Kings Cross line had had similar treatment and they are not as pleasant to travel in as the old units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Compressor in one of the DTOS/C, apparently they used to have two compressors, one in each end coach. Only thing special about the trailer is the toilets.

Oh OK, so reducing to 3-car wouldn't be too complicated then, as the existing toilets aren't accessible anyway. A big toilet in one of the driving cars (as on Northern's 321/322s) would do the trick.

 

[sheepy1991]

Do 317s have the compressors etc., in the pan car like the 321s or is it awkwardly placed in the intermediate trailer like on 319s? If the former, I could see them being useful in 3/6-car formations for Northern. Especially as they already have unit end gangways...

321's dont have compressors in the PMOS (pan car) no where near enough space for them, 321's are located on the ATS the coach with the bogs

 

[A-driver]

Do 317s have the compressors etc., in the pan car like the 321s or is it awkwardly placed in the intermediate trailer like on 319s? If the former, I could see them being useful in 3/6-car formations for Northern. Especially as they already have unit end gangways...

The compressor on a 317 is on one of the driving trailers. The 321 has a compressor on the auxiliary trailer (ie the non driving trailer car). I can't think of an electric unit with the compressor on the pan car-the transformer and all associated equipment takes up far too much room. Even the suspension air tank often has to be redesigned inIto multiple smaller tanks to allow it to fit.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

321's dont have compressors in the PMOS (pan car) no where near enough space for them, 321's are located on the ATS the coach with the bogs

The compressor on a 317 is on one of the driving trailers. The 321 has a compressor on the auxiliary trailer (ie the non driving trailer car). I can't think of an electric unit with the compressor on the pan car-the transformer and all associated equipment takes up far too much room. Even the suspension air tank often has to be redesigned inIto multiple smaller tanks to allow it to fit.

Thanks, both. I was under the impression that the 321s being shortened for Scotrail had been easier to do (than proposed 3-car 319s for Northern) due to compressors not needing to be moved. Clearly I was mistaken! Either way it seems that if 3-car units are required for Northern (on Manchester to Preston locals or to allow 6-car formations on Leeds NW) refurbished 317s would be easier than 319s. The only thing to move is toilets which will need replacing anyway before the end of 2019.

 

[Be3G]

Yes, it's a retrograde step in my view to take the carpets out. The refurbished 365s on the Kings Cross line had had similar treatment and they are not as pleasant to travel in as the old units.

Indeed, carpet on the 317s was the one touch of luxury they used to provide, so it's a shame to see it go. Although I still prefer the refreshed ones to the old, carpeted ones. Now if only LO could get around to sorting out their own small 317 fleet, we might be at the point where generally the condition of trains in my local area is actually mildly pleasant.

 

[jopsuk]

LO are likely to do very little to their 317s given the replacements are on order

 

[Be3G]

Whilst that's potentially true, they've spruced up a few 315s with new seat covers etc. so I'd hope that work could extend to the 317s too!

 

[boby32]

the 12 class 317 on Great Northern are being replaced by the class 387. Does anyone know if these 12 class 317 will be cascaded?

 

[59CosG95]

the 12 class 317 on Great Northern are being replaced by the class 387. Does anyone know if these 12 class 317 will be cascaded?

I hear they're bound for AGA. All they need changing externally is a repaint on the doors and a change of the logo transfers.

 

[boby32]

I hear they're bound for AGA. All they need changing externally is a repaint on the doors and a change of the logo transfers.

If this is the case, then AGA and London Overground will be two operators to have 317s.

 

[D365]

If this is the case, then AGA and London Overground will be two operators to have 317s.

Only until the Aventras are in service.

 

[47802]

Only until the Aventras are in service.

Indeed soon there will be plenty of scrap for the scrapman