Class 313 replacement

[LBSCR Times]

At the risk of being pedantic .

Correct.

 

[NSEFAN]

If they're still ok how possible would it be to send a few to lightly used rural southeastern services to free up networkers for very busy metro routes?

Having micro-fleets is generally expensive, as it requires drivers, guards and maintenance teams to have greater knowledge and resources so that the trains can be used. The 508s were allowed to fall into a state of disrepair and eventually had to be withdrawn. I think a better solution would be some Electrostars, or variants thereof, to help with compatibility, training and maintenance costs.

 

[ScotGG]

How much extra costs are we talking? If it's the only chance to relieve chronic overcrowding it must be a price worth paying. I can't imagine maintaining a few class 313s is that expensive - any major work could be undertaken by neighbouring Southern?

The routes from Victoria are crush loaded and there's no respite in sight. Well, it's not just Victoria but many services also from Charing Cross and Cannon Street using Networkers. Southeastern aren't getting any new stock anytime soon apart from the 25 class 377/1s supposedly in Dec 2017 but there's also plans to move 20 class 375s away at the same time. Those net 5 units could run on branch lines but SE will need a lot more than just 5 across the whole franchise. London metro routes alone are seeing very large growth in population and passenger numbers.

 

[Class377/5]

Its Govia who are withdrawing them. At least one TSGN bidder proposed to refit the Moorgate 313 fleet into six car fixed formation units for continued service.

 

[hwl]

I can't imagine maintaining a few class 313s is that expensive - any major work could be undertaken by neighbouring Southern?

But if southern were already to be maxed out on maintenance capacity?

 

[ScotGG]

How closely does one branch of govia work with the others? You'd think SE would have a word with Southern/Thameslink. SE are constantly saying the want extra stock. If this is another chance to improve Southeastern overcrowding that goes begging it's becoming a real p*** take. Talk about SE London and Kent being overlooked as focus and efforts are placed on numerous other franchises around London. Govt seems to think HS1 has solved all problems. It does nothing for many areas.

 

[hwl]

How closely does one branch of govia work with the others? You'd think SE would have a word with Southern. SE are constantly saying the want extra stock. If this is another chance to improve Southeastern overcrowding that goes begging it's becoming a real p*** take. Talk about SE London and Kent being overlooked as focus and efforts are placed on numerous other franchises around London. Govt seems to think HS1 has solved all problems. It does nothing for many areas.

Any they appear to think Crossrail will solve the issues HS1 hasn't...

 

[Class377/5]

How closely does one branch of govia work with the others? You'd think SE would have a word with Southern/Thameslink. SE are constantly saying the want extra stock. If this is another chance to improve Southeastern overcrowding that goes begging it's becoming a real p*** take. Talk about SE London and Kent being overlooked as focus and efforts are placed on numerous other franchises around London. Govt seems to think HS1 has solved all problems. It does nothing for many areas.

Stock had nothing to do with Govia franchises but between frsnchisee, the DfT and the ROSCOs. Any released stock will require SE to get a new lease. Let's not forget that SE had had an increase in stock with it losing some routes to Thameslink while then getting an extra 6x 377s hired in without the maintenance as well.

 

[AndyNLondon]

The GN 313s will be 40 years old by the time they're withdrawn from the Moorgate services, and would need a fair amount of work to meet the accessibility regs to stay in use beyond 2020. How much money would actually be worth spending on refurbing them when they'd have, at best, another 10 years of life left?

 

[ScotGG]

Stock had nothing to do with Govia franchises but between frsnchisee, the DfT and the ROSCOs. Any released stock will require SE to get a new lease. Let's not forget that SE had had an increase in stock with it losing some routes to Thameslink while then getting an extra 6x 377s hired in without the maintenance as well.

The extra stock seems to have gone to routes to Charing cross & Cannon Street with large growth the past couple of years, so running fast to stay still there, whilst seemingly adding nothing to the Victoria services of which 6 cars at peak time is common. With the SE extension running until 2018 and terms set in stone until then, and 313s becoming free in 2017, that means the govt would need to step in presumably?

Crossrail is not a fix all either. Only 2 stops south of the river and serving just one SE line. Given the recent population and passenger growth in the Thames Gateway, and forecast numbers for the next decade, it'll clearly not suffice for many SE routes.

Andy - Who knows how much life? If even 5 years without a refurb from 2017 that's better than nowt and offers a breather as demand grows. It appears there's no other plans and even if a new tender is put out it could well be 2019+ until fulfilled. Do 313s have toilets? The southern ones don't so no disabled regs to worry about there.

If the govt was making ANY noises about providing southeastern with something substantial it wouldn't be worth looking at, but they aren't it seems and demand is shooting up, so a stop gap like this could be the answer short term.

 

[jon0844]

The GN 313s will be 40 years old by the time they're withdrawn from the Moorgate services, and would need a fair amount of work to meet the accessibility regs to stay in use beyond 2020. How much money would actually be worth spending on refurbing them when they'd have, at best, another 10 years of life left?

They seem fairly accessible to me. Nice wide doors, not too much of a step. An internal layout change, to give a better wheelchair space, wouldn't seem too hard.

There are no toilets, so that's not an issue either.

 

[RobShipway]

This is going to seem like a silly question, but if when the Class 700 arrive I presume that means that the 377's doing Thameslink either move to Southeastern or move to doing Southern Services replacing the Southern class 313's possibly?

If SouthEastern still require trains, then maybe the 19 Southern 313's move?

 

[A-driver]

This is going to seem like a silly question, but if when the Class 700 arrive I presume that means that the 377's doing Thameslink either move to Southeastern or move to doing Southern Services replacing the Southern class 313's possibly?

If SouthEastern still require trains, then maybe the 19 Southern 313's move?

A number of 377s will be moving onto the GN to replace 365s on Kings Lynn services.

 

[RobShipway]

So where are the 365's going?

 

[swt_passenger]

This is going to seem like a silly question, but if when the Class 700 arrive I presume that means that the 377's doing Thameslink either move to Southeastern or move to doing Southern Services replacing the Southern class 313's possibly?

No they don't replace any 313s. This has been pointed out a few times over the last few months.

GTR have announced their rolling stock plans (for the former Southern routes) already - the only 'older' units to definitely go off lease are the 442s, and they have also said that the 455s will not be used so intensively.

 

[anthony263]

So where are the 365's going?

A suggestion in Modern Railways that some of the class 365's could be going to FGW to working the stopper services with the class 387's running those fast services.

 

[Class377/5]

No they don't replace any 313s. This has been pointed out a few times over the last few months.

GTR have announced their rolling stock plans (for the former Southern routes) already - the only 'older' units to definitely go off lease are the 442s, and they have also said that the 455s will not be used so intensively.

The 442 plan may have changed. Certainly they be around until 2018 it seems.

 

[AndyNLondon]

They seem fairly accessible to me. Nice wide doors, not too much of a step. An internal layout change, to give a better wheelchair space, wouldn't seem too hard.

There are no toilets, so that's not an issue either.

They'd need to be fitted with PIS & screens for automated announcements (currently just have manual PA), but I guess that might be quite cheap in the grand scheme of things. For them to be accepted elsewhere as "new to the area" trains though, they'd probably need an interior refurb similar to the South coast ones so that they don't look like cast-offs, and that will cost a bit. (Witness the political kerfuffles whenever anything obviously "old" is cascaded!)

 

[jon0844]

I am surprised they didn't get PIS when the CCTV was fitted, but it surely wouldn't be that expensive to do - and the equipment is readily available and 'tried and tested', having been installed on the 315s that are virtually identical.

Changing the seats/layout may or may not be necessary, as Wagn/FCC/GTR seem to have kept them in pretty good nick given how hard they're worked day in day out.

Of course people will moan regardless, especially about trains made in the 1970s, but that's to be expected. Thing is, they're good and solid trains that could be made to last until they literally crumble and turn to dust.

 

[Fincra5]

The 442 plan may have changed. Certainly they be around until 2018 it seems.

SO not just the ones kept for LBG-EBN/BTN (and VV) >?

 

[Class377/5]

SO not just the ones kept for LBG-EBN/BTN (and VV) >?

Just the Eastbourne services, they won't run to Brighton I believe after the introduction of the 387/2s.

 

[Wolfie]

No they don't replace any 313s. This has been pointed out a few times over the last few months.

GTR have announced their rolling stock plans (for the former Southern routes) already - the only 'older' units to definitely go off lease are the 442s, and they have also said that the 455s will not be used so intensively.

my bold

... so another, somewhat newer, potential microfleet candidate, particularly if given the SWT treatment....

 

[Fincra5]

Just the Eastbourne services, they won't run to Brighton I believe after the introduction of the 387/2s.

Unless the 387/2s run the London Bridge to Brighton service, I don't see where enough 377s would come from for it. Vice 442. Unless that service disappears in the big new timetable revamp.

 

[ScotGG]

They'd need to be fitted with PIS & screens for automated announcements (currently just have manual PA), but I guess that might be quite cheap in the grand scheme of things. For them to be accepted elsewhere as "new to the area" trains though, they'd probably need an interior refurb similar to the South coast ones so that they don't look like cast-offs, and that will cost a bit. (Witness the political kerfuffles whenever anything obviously "old" is cascaded!)

Not on Southeastern rural routes. The networkers are now 25 years old with barely any work done (the light refresh a few years ago did very little) and look very scruffy. I doubt a 313 would see much in the way of complaints.

 

[Class377/5]

Unless the 387/2s run the London Bridge to Brighton service, I don't see where enough 377s would come from for it. Vice 442. Unless that service disappears in the big new timetable revamp.

442 will be chucked of GatEx services and take over Eastbourne services which come December are no longer splitters. Not sure why you think they need to run to London Bridge. December 2015 is pretty much the December 2018 timetable introduced several years early with Thameslink services already for when London Bridge opens. Detailed writing now underway.

my bold

... so another, somewhat newer, potential microfleet candidate, particularly if given the SWT treatment....

The 455 fleet will be kept in the same numbers as now but used less as they will be expected to be less reliable than now. How you think a fleet less used is creating a mirco fleet....?

 

[Wolfie]

The 455 fleet will be kept in the same numbers as now but used less as they will be expected to be less reliable than now. How you think a fleet less used is creating a mirco fleet....?

In a climate of at least short-term 3rd-rail EMU shortage Southern could (and probably should) be told by DfT to release some 455s and use the remainder more frequently - if SWT can.....

 

[D365]

Will it take a lot more than an extended retraction programme to keep the Southern (and SWT) 455s in tip-top working order?

 

[Class377/5]

In a climate of at least short-term 3rd-rail EMU shortage Southern could (and probably should) be told by DfT to release some 455s and use the remainder more frequently - if SWT can.....

Southern is using the 455s as much as it can, but there is little point as Southern the company only exists to July. GTR can be ordered to but Govia won the bid by using the 455s less. DfT can always change is mind with GTR as it's a management contact and not a proper franchise.

 

[hwl]

In a climate of at least short-term 3rd-rail EMU shortage Southern could (and probably should) be told by DfT to release some 455s and use the remainder more frequently - if SWT can.....

But there won't be "spare" 455s available till some get displayed directly by the arrival of 700s or indirectly by 377s displaced by the arrival of 700s. As there are regular short forms including today it would suggest there aren't enough at the moment...

 

[Hophead]

442 will be chucked of GatEx services and take over Eastbourne services which come December are no longer splitters. Not sure why you think they need to run to London Bridge. December 2015 is pretty much the December 2018 timetable introduced several years early with Thameslink services already for when London Bridge opens. Detailed writing now underway.

Can you clarify? The "consultation" document explicitly states that trains detach and they are certainly shown in the draft timetable as hanging around Haywards Heath for long enough. Have plans changed?