Class 313 replacement

[387star]

What's replacing Southerns class 313s and when.. 377/5 or perhaps class 319s?

 

[Bishopstone]

I don't believe there are any plans to replace them, as stands.

 

[D365]

What's replacing Southerns class 313s and when.. 377/5 or perhaps class 319s?

Post-700 cascade plans are taking shape slowly; so far we know of Class 377/5 units moving to London-Corby/Cambridge fasts, for example. Few plans have been announced for the Southern region, one should assume for now an eventual cascade of 377 subclasses, though who knows what more Class 319 surprises we might see!

 

[387star]

Strange after all these years of shortages we are now facing a unit surplus?! Add to that redundant mk3s possibly for crosscountry

We will have spare 319, 315, 317, 313 as well as scotrail and northern diesels

Oh and eventually mk4s as well

 

[anthony263]

Well Modern Railways did suggest Northern were going to take the whole batch of 319's as well at the class 350/4's operated by TPE. TPE would be getting a batch of emu's once more of the TPE network is Wired.

The Thameslink class 387's were supposed to be going to FGW with FGW also getting a batch of class 365's to work their stopper services with the 387's being used on semi fast services which use the fast lines out of Paddington.

Modern Railways also had a suggestion that some of Southeasterns class 375's could be cascaded to the midlands for Corby - London services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
South wales is going to require emu's for the Valley lines as well as some local mainline services. FGW will need some emu's for use around Bristol with more being required if Birmigham - Bristol & beyond is electrified

 

[LBSCR Times]

I don't believe there are any plans to replace them, as stands.

Correct, nothing for the forseeable future.
The west coastway has gone from modern units (377/3) to some of the oldest units in the country. No wonder they are not popular. Standing room only is the normal too in the peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very definitely nothing till the next franchise in 2022.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

442s?

*dons tin hat and runs for cover*

 

[Bishopstone]

Correct, nothing for the forseeable future.
The west coastway has gone from modern units (377/3) to some of the oldest units in the country. No wonder they are not popular. Standing room only is the normal too in the peak.

And why are they used on a Sunday, whilst 377s and 442s sit in sidings?

I was hemmed-in by a family group this morning, whose pre-school son announced he needed a poo. Judging by the smell, his need was quite pressing, but as Dad quickly deduced: no toilet on the train. (And Brighton station toilets are no longer free, violating a promise made when the 313s were introduced.)

With the A27 along the coast being so slow (in parts), the railway should be winning lots of business, but the combination of unattractive rolling stock and excessive stops on the Brighton-Pompey/Soton trains means the line punches below its weight.

 

[387star]

I saw a girl almost in tears at brighton recently who needed the toilet ASAP... Come in on a 313
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What do you make of the class 377 refurbishment? Do the tables on the backs of seats stay upright now

 

[KX03HZY]

313s at Southern will stay til franchise end. GN 313s are being replaced in 2018. 377/5s are going to Great Northern for Cambridge and Kings Lynn services in 2017, 375/6s will be going to EMT for London to Corby services also in 2017 and 387s will be going to FGW during 2016 in time for the December 2016 timetable change to launch an electric service between London and Reading.

 

[Bishopstone]

I saw a girl almost in tears at brighton recently who needed the toilet ASAP... Come in on a 313
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What do you make of the class 377 refurbishment? Do the tables on the backs of seats stay upright now

I am a big fan of the class 377. They are the Honda/Toyota of the rolling stock world, just getting on quietly and reliably with the fairly arduous job in hand. The refresh is just fine, and my ears haven't been assaulted lately so I presume the tables have been either copiously oiled or replaced.

The 2+2 in a 377 is more comfortable than Standard in a Pendolino or East Coast Mallard, in my view.

 

[B&W]

And why are they used on a Sunday, whilst 377s and 442s sit in sidings?

I was hemmed-in by a family group this morning, whose pre-school son announced he needed a poo. Judging by the smell, his need was quite pressing, but as Dad quickly deduced: no toilet on the train. (And Brighton station toilets are no longer free, violating a promise made when the 313s were introduced.)

With the A27 along the coast being so slow (in parts), the railway should be winning lots of business, but the combination of unattractive rolling stock and excessive stops on the Brighton-Pompey/Soton trains means the line punches below its weight.

Sadly very true. I know many people who were train users but we all now use the A27 and ratruns. Takes 52mins by train from Chichester to Brighton, used to be 38mins. Add in only three coaches and sardine conditions and you do not have to have a high IQ to see why we are all on the A27. Takes me about 40mins by car to Brighton including the Worthing pinch point. Seems todays railways can only think in terms of 3/4 coach trains stopping at all stations because its too difficult for them otherwise.

When the line was first electrified the proper Southern Railway offered from Brighton every hour the following :
xx 03 All stations to West Worthing
xx 17 Hove, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Portsmouth
xx 20 All stations to West Worthing
xx 33 All stations to West Worthing
xx 47 Hove, Shoreham, Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Fratton, P&S, P Harbr
( Chichester connection all stations to P&S)
XX 50 All stations to Bognor via Littlehampton

At the same time these trains mixed in with the Victoria to Littlehamptons via Hove ( all stations from Worthing) , the Mid Sussex line with Vic to Bognor and P harbour fasts (semi fast from Chichester dividing at Barnham) and a 2TPH stopping service to Littlehampton or Bognor, as well as that useful service of trains around the triangle Ford, Arundel and Littlehampton connecting with the East/West stoppers and Mid Sussex fasts.

All this with low powered trains, slam doors, semaphore signals, goods trains and a multitude of maunally operated level crossings along a line where you could only overtake at Worthing going east and Barnham going West.

Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour took 1hr 56mins and Bognor 95mins. (with Buffets)

Compare with the sad service on offer today.

Brian

 

[Bishopstone]

On my occasional business trips to Portsmouth, the peak stopping patterns seem to be entirely random, but in at least one direction we call at the 'two little fishes' (Fishersgate and Fishbourne) and I find myself thinking, 'Why?'

In the hours fGW don't run, I think West Coastway would benefit from an 'express' with a similar stopping pattern, ie: Brighton-Hove-Shoreham-Worthing-Barnham-Chichester-Havant-Cosham-Fareham-Southampton. The stock will soon be available to do this, but no doubt there are lots of other operational reasons why it's just too complicated.

However, I've pushed the thread off topic, and the naughty step beckons.

 

[387star]

The FGW trains to brighton are loved by southern commuters surprised they don't petition for more

 

[MK Tom]

Post-700 cascade plans are taking shape slowly; so far we know of Class 377/5 units moving to London-Corby/Cambridge fasts, for example. Few plans have been announced for the Southern region, one should assume for now an eventual cascade of 377 subclasses, though who knows what more Class 319 surprises we might see!

Apologies for diverging from topic but would that Corby service be EMT or Thameslink? Seems odd to split the 377 fleet between two operators on nearby routes but at the same time Corby should be more of an intercity service than local Thameslink stuff.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies for diverging from topic but would that Corby service be EMT or Thameslink? Seems odd to split the 377 fleet between two operators on nearby routes but at the same time Corby should be more of an intercity service than local Thameslink stuff.

There are no official suggestions that Corby will transfer from EMT. Loads of posts in various forums proposing that it be part of Thameslink, but that's all froth AFAICT.

I also don't think there's any significant evidence that 377s are going to be used to Corby either.

 

[JamesRowden]

The FGW trains to brighton are loved by southern commuters surprised they don't petition for more

The Cross-Boundary Route Study suggests an hourly express service between Bristol and Brighton. This might free up some Southampton-Brighton 377s to replace some 313s

 

[HSTEd]

Well when the 313s get kicked of Moorgate you could probably get some more.
3-car trains replaced with 6-cars might take away the sardine problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies for diverging from topic but would that Corby service be EMT or Thameslink? Seems odd to split the 377 fleet between two operators on nearby routes but at the same time Corby should be more of an intercity service than local Thameslink stuff.

Thameslink could do with more fast services, then you could put u/s on all stops at Bedford and Luton/Airport Parkway on EMT and stop cramming trains with commuters that would be perfectly long enough if they weren't used in that way?

Neil

 

[D365]

Apologies for diverging from topic but would that Corby service be EMT or Thameslink? Seems odd to split the 377 fleet between two operators on nearby routes but at the same time Corby should be more of an intercity service than local Thameslink stuff.

There are no official suggestions that Corby will transfer from EMT. Loads of posts in various forums proposing that it be part of Thameslink, but that's all froth AFAICT.

I also don't think there's any significant evidence that 377s are going to be used to Corby either.

As with so much else I've only read posts so far; difficult to locate any official evidence. There were people suggesting it to be an extension of Thameslink fasts from Bedford but as you say that's even more vague and much less likely.

According to the MML Wikipedia page it will possibly be Class 387 on London-Corby, but according to the Class 387 article it will be Class 377 but unconfirmed, unlike their future drafting in on GN Cambridge fasts.

Both reference the Network Rail CP5 Delivery Plan but I have yet to find any mention of this proposal in an actual document.

Also the comment here intrigues me but we can't verify its validity immediately.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Well when the 313s get kicked of Moorgate you could probably get some more.
3-car trains replaced with 6-cars might take away the sardine problem.

Not without platform extensions at several of the stations, as the units are too old for SDO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the hours fGW don't run, I think West Coastway would benefit from an 'express' with a similar stopping pattern, ie: Brighton-Hove-Shoreham-Worthing-Barnham-Chichester-Havant-Cosham-Fareham-Southampton. The stock will soon be available to do this, but no doubt there are lots of other operational reasons why it's just too complicated.

Because many of the intermediate stops also generate a lot of longer distance traffic too, such as Portslade, Lancing, Angmering and Emsworth.
More so now the Coastliner 700 bus, even though it has got slower over the years, no longer runs through from Brighton to Portsmouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the MML Wikipedia page it will possibly be Class 387 on London-Corby, but according to the Class 387 article it will be Class 377 but unconfirmed, unlike their future drafting in on GN Cambridge fasts.

The original CP5 enhancement plan did say '377s are assumed' but subsequent updates have dropped the class information.

The December update says Corby will be operated with 125 mph EMUs either 12x 20m or 10 x 24m. (The latter '24m' vehicles is news to me as well.)

Often when dealing with an electrification project's early stages they have to design for a typical rolling stock, if only to decide the OHLE engineering details, e.g. multiple pans up or a single pan on a long train. IIRC a number of projects have been describes with '319s assumed' but are now presumed to be 387s, e.g. GWML.

I suspect that people have noticed 377s being mentioned early in the CP5 iterations, so transferred that into Wiki, but won't have necessarily spotted the info has been deleted now.

 

[Bishopstone]

Because many of the intermediate stops also generate a lot of longer distance traffic too, such as Portslade, Lancing, Angmering and Emsworth.

My suggested hourly express would be in addition to the existing Brighton-Portsmouth/Southampton semi-fasts, not instead of.

I think it would load well, build the rail share of the market, and take pressure off the slower trains.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know there is a Littlehampton - Portsmouth s/s service calling all stations (using 313's) so why not extend the Brighton - West Worthing service to Littlehampton (calling all stations)? This might provide better scope for a Brighton - Portsmouth/Southampton semi (that departs before the stopper) if there was pathing available between the Victoria - Littlehamptons and Victoria - Bognors.

 

[physics34]

for all we know the 387s are going to Paddington services....eventually. Still dont think there has been any clear documentation suggesting where these and the rest of the 319s are going.

 

[HSTEd]

If platform lengths are all too short they can either be lengthened or additional trains can be laid on. Is the route DOO? If so the cost of additional drivers might not be unreasonable.

 

[Aictos]

If platform lengths are all too short they can either be lengthened or additional trains can be laid on. Is the route DOO? If so the cost of additional drivers might not be unreasonable.

It's def not DOO as far as I am aware, the only DOO services Southern run is London Metro and also I think the fast 8 car Capital Coast Expresses.

 

[BestWestern]

I understand that there are considerations being given to remodelling the current FGW service to Brighton. The Great Malvern leg is likely to be axed in favour of Bristol, and there is a possibility of a more frequent service into Brighton - there is, supposedly, a path available which has been identified.

I thoroughly agree that the current West Coastway is poor. Whilst undoubtedly a difficult line to serve adequately, owing to the multitude of stations and the peeling off of lines in different directions at various points, a decent semi-fast service would certainly be a sensible addition. Public transport links between Brighton and Portsmouth are woeful. To the cursary eye, the current service pattern seems a confusing mess. Perhaps Southern would do well to run only to Victoria from Portsmouth & Southampton, every 60 mins from each to provide a 30 min overall frequency and serving the 'little stops' between Havant and Barnham. Drop the long distance Brightons, plenty of connections from Barny for those who need the slow boat to the seaside. And then let an enhanced FGW effort provide an hourly or two hourly express along the Coastway.

 

[samogers]

I understand that there are considerations being given to remodelling the current FGW service to Brighton. The Great Malvern leg is likely to be axed in favour of Bristol, and there is a possibility of a more frequent service into Brighton - there is, supposedly, a path available which has been identified.

I thoroughly agree that the current West Coastway is poor. Whilst undoubtedly a difficult line to serve adequately, owing to the multitude of stations and the peeling off of lines in different directions at various points, a decent semi-fast service would certainly be a sensible addition. Public transport links between Brighton and Portsmouth are woeful. To the cursary eye, the current service pattern seems a confusing mess. Perhaps Southern would do well to run only to Victoria from Portsmouth & Southampton, every 60 mins from each to provide a 30 min overall frequency and serving the 'little stops' between Havant and Barnham. Drop the long distance Brightons, plenty of connections from Barny for those who need the slow boat to the seaside. And then let an enhanced FGW effort provide an hourly or two hourly express along the Coastway.

I like the idea of a better FGW service. I have used the 1V96 (1659 Brighton to Bristol) a lot recently and it is very popular. Also whilst you did have the worthing and Chichester lot, a surprising amount of people were traveling further afield (bath and Salisbury in particular.) I have also used 1V96 to travel direct between Brighton and Bristol, and I think it is a great service. There definitely is a market there.

There are also two underused passing loops between Fareham and Brighton (worthing and Barnham) there is also hove but it would be pretty pointless looping something there as it is one stop out of Brighton.
Worthing platform 1 sees one train a day: 1Y25, the Southampton to Brighton service looped to allow, coincidentally 1O98 past it: FGWs Malvern to Brighton service again which is well used. It would not be too hard to find paths for an enhanced FGW service although timetable tinkering would be required. The main problem at the moment is lack of suitable stock... (e.g 150s on 5 hour services) though this should improve with the introduction of IEPs and Thames valley electfrication.