Class 313 replacement

[SpacePhoenix]

Realistically how many more years life have the 313s got? If they've got enough, is there a TOC where they could see out their remaining years?

 

[D365]

Realistically how many more years life have the 313s got? If they've got enough, is there a TOC where they could see out their remaining years?

2035 just like the fabled Mk3

Depends how much longer a TOC is willing to keep up the PEP! They seem as if they could go on for another 10-15 years perhaps; Cardiff Valley electrics is the first which springs to mind, possibly some western branch lines?

 

[A0]

And why are they used on a Sunday, whilst 377s and 442s sit in sidings?

I was hemmed-in by a family group this morning, whose pre-school son announced he needed a poo. Judging by the smell, his need was quite pressing, but as Dad quickly deduced: no toilet on the train. (And Brighton station toilets are no longer free, violating a promise made when the 313s were introduced.)

With the A27 along the coast being so slow (in parts), the railway should be winning lots of business, but the combination of unattractive rolling stock and excessive stops on the Brighton-Pompey/Soton trains means the line punches below its weight.

Serious question - do many people travel the full journey from Portsmouth - Brighton? OK - that's a 90 min journey, but the longest journey the 313s do on the GN route is 75 mins (Moorgate -Letchworth) and their 'average' end to end journey is 50 mins (Moorgate - WGC or Hertford). Similarly end to end journey times on some Underground lines (also without toilets on the train) are 90 mins on some lines - so the lack of on-train toilets shouldn't be as bigger issue as is being made out here.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Serious question - do many people travel the full journey from Portsmouth - Brighton? OK - that's a 90 min journey, but the longest journey the 313s do on the GN route is 75 mins (Moorgate -Letchworth) and their 'average' end to end journey is 50 mins (Moorgate - WGC or Hertford). Similarly end to end journey times on some Underground lines (also without toilets on the train) are 90 mins on some lines - so the lack of on-train toilets shouldn't be as bigger issue as is being made out here.

Yes, there is a lot of end-to-end traffic, even long distance intermediate traffic.
There are no realistic alternative forms of public transport.
It is surprising how busy the west coastway can be!
And a lot of the traffic is those of an older generation, whose bladders are not the most firm....!!
However, a lot of those travelling longer distances have worked out that they can leave Brighton on the Southampton service, formed of a 377, and change at Havant, in to either the Down Victoria or Waterloo, if the Victoria is late, and get to Portsmouth just as quick. More so as this is the advertised connection for the catamaran to Ryde!

 

[ScotGG]

Realistically how many more years life have the 313s got? If they've got enough, is there a TOC where they could see out their remaining years?

Send some to rural Southeastern lines freeing up Networkers for the very busy London suburban and mid distance routes.

 

[D365]

Send some to rural Southeastern lines freeing up Networkers for the very busy London suburban and mid distance routes.

Isn't that what the 508s used to do? You'd hope the 313s to be kept in better condition...

 

[ScotGG]

It is. The 508s had a mild refurb then were left to rot shortly after until scrapped a couple of years ago. Sister trains going strong in Liverpool. Now networkers cover those routes. It's only a few carriages but with the London Bridge works and mass overcrowding taking networkers away from other routes was very short sighted.

 

[jon0844]

I've said many times, but if the 313s didn't have a lot of wasted space internally, they could probably carry on doing the same routes on GTR for many more years to come, but alas there's a need for a new train with more open space, open gangways and fixed 6-car formations.

But they appear to have been well looked after, seem virtually bullet proof, don't have any corrosion that I can see (but engineers may well laugh at that given what THEY can see!) and seem pretty simple to maintain. I assume drivers know them so well, they know how to rectify almost any problems without any trouble.

I do hope they'll go on to find a new home somewhere, and get an internal refresh to keep them going for another ten years or more. It is a shame they never got internal screens and automated announcers.

 

[superkev]

As I said in an earlier thread what a useful go anywhere machine a 313 would be with a diesel engine hung under each trailer. Ac. Dc and diesel.
better bet to me than the ex LU proposal. Al bodied too.
k

 

[Nym]

You mean as apposed to the Aluminium Extrusions with New Bogies being converted at Long Marston?

 

[D365]

You mean as apposed to the Aluminium Extrusions with New Bogies being converted at Long Marston?

Would a 75mph top speed be achievable with a 'diesel PEP'? The 60mph limit is an apparent downside to the D78 conversion...

 

[Domh245]

I'd imagine that you could get 75mph from a diesel (or ideally a bi-mode) pep. As I understand it, the main limiting factor behind the 60mph limit for the D train is the size of the wheel on the bogie, if it went much higher than 60mph, you'd probably start getting through wheelsets and bearings at a ridiculous rate

 

[Caboose]

I think the 313s are only really suitable for the Brighton - Hove, Brighton - Lewes and Barnham - Bognor etc shuttles and perhaps Brighton - Seaford to be honest. I can't see how, given their age and lack of toilets they are still being used on the Brighton to Southampton services. Crazy.

 

[swt_passenger]

...I can't see how, given their age and lack of toilets they are still being used on the Brighton to Southampton services. Crazy.

They do not go to Southampton on a normal basis though. They were route cleared to Southampton for use in emergency, but have only appeared a couple of times during major disruption.

They appear regularly at Portsmouth however.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How about using 313's on Paddock Wood - Maidstone West - Strood and Sittingbourne - Sheerness which are fairly self contained routes and not too long a journey. This would free up 2-car Networkers to strengthen Metro routes.

I must applaud Southern however for looking after them so well...

 

[Bishopstone]

I must applaud Southern however for looking after them so well...

Maintenance hasn't extended to the heating system this winter. Far too many cold units.

 

[B&W]

They do not go to Southampton on a normal basis though. They were route cleared to Southampton for use in emergency, but have only appeared a couple of times during major disruption.

They appear regularly at Portsmouth however.

At the LCs you see more 313s than 377s. At peak times the 3 coach trains are literally rammed packed at Chichester with school, college and university folk.

For the first time in over a year I used Govia last week and a couple of 313 trains went past before my (late) train arrived and in the spring sunshine the corrosion bubbles around the cab top and bottoms and door steps were very apparent if you looked closely. (I saw the 508s before they were scrapped and it was eye opening to see the amount of corrosion around the door step areas) It can' t be helping the cabs that three out of the four cabs that passed me had what appeared to be cracks in the roofs where the cab joins the main bodies. Can't fault Govia cleaning however, it was the freshly cleaned paintwork that showed up all these defects to a casual observer.

Brian

 

[Olaf]

Realistically how many more years life have the 313s got? If they've got enough, is there a TOC where they could see out their remaining years?

They are specifically excluded from the cascade plans. So, excepting for a possible tactical redeployment of some units, those operated by GTR nearing the end of the operation life.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They are specifically excluded from the cascade plans. So, excepting for a possible tactical redeployment of some units, those operated by GTR nearing the end of the operation life.

Could the pan coaches of them be swapped out with an intermediate coach of a class 455 to make them dual-voltage (assuming that the pan coaches of the 313 aren't completely knackered)?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Maintenance hasn't extended to the heating system this winter. Far too many cold units.

Not helped by when they are in terminal stations, having all their doors open, as passengers are unable to close them when they join the train.

 

[sarahj]

Not helped by when they are in terminal stations, having all their doors open, as passengers are unable to close them when they join the train.

Very easy to close the doors, you push the doors close button situated next to each door, just under the doors open button. I try and close them when I'm changing ends and some passengers do close them when they join. Most don't.

 

[LBSCR Times]

...... Most don't.

Precisely! Most don't, and the worst ones are those who see an open door and a closed door, but have to open the closed one, rather than joining the open one!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Precisely! Most don't, and the worst ones are those who see an open door and a closed door, but have to open the closed one, rather than joining the open one!

Just be glad you're not on Merseyrail...

 

[A0]

Not helped by when they are in terminal stations, having all their doors open, as passengers are unable to close them when they join the train.

Now 30 years ago you'd have been correct - when the 313s didn't have passenger controlled doors and all doors opened at every stop and stayed open at the termini until departure - but they all have passenger door opening buttons - so it's not that passengers are unable to close them - it's that the don't.

 

[Kite159]

Just be glad you're not on Merseyrail...

Or on the Cathcart circle in Glasgow with 314s

Some (if not most) Modern stock the doors will auto close after a short while, probably for AC control.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Now 30 years ago you'd have been correct - when the 313s didn't have passenger controlled doors and all doors opened at every stop and stayed open at the termini until departure - but they all have passenger door opening buttons - so it's not that passengers are unable to close them - it's that the don't.

I'm still correct! Passengers are 'unable' to close them.
I didn't say they couldn't close them....

 

[A0]

I'm still correct! Passengers are 'unable' to close them.
I didn't say they couldn't close them....

At the risk of being pedantic - Askoxford defines 'unable' as "Lacking the skill, means, or opportunity to do something"

There is both the means (i.e. the button next to the door) and opportunity (walking past the button) and I'd suggest the 'skill' (i.e. how hard is it to push a button).

Therefore people are not 'unable' i.e. there is nothing which prevents or precludes them from closing the doors - it's just that people choose not to or can't be bothered to - that doesn't mean they are unable to.

 

[47802]

At the LCs you see more 313s than 377s. At peak times the 3 coach trains are literally rammed packed at Chichester with school, college and university folk.

For the first time in over a year I used Govia last week and a couple of 313 trains went past before my (late) train arrived and in the spring sunshine the corrosion bubbles around the cab top and bottoms and door steps were very apparent if you looked closely. (I saw the 508s before they were scrapped and it was eye opening to see the amount of corrosion around the door step areas) It can' t be helping the cabs that three out of the four cabs that passed me had what appeared to be cracks in the roofs where the cab joins the main bodies. Can't fault Govia cleaning however, it was the freshly cleaned paintwork that showed up all these defects to a casual observer.

Brian

Oh you carn't say things like that on here! some on here will say they have another 20 years usage in them and have them cascaded to every electrification scheme going and sticking transit engine underneath them

 

[Class377/5]

The only thing we know over the 313 replacement is all the units used to Moorgate will be replaced from 2017-2018 period with 25x 6 cars, ITT to be released soon. The 313 used on South Coast services will be kept in service until the next franchise.

As for what stock will be used on the Corby, where the 387s will go etc is all rumour currently with nothing offical confirmed the debate will continue.

Insiders on Great Western have stated that FGW has ordered a 387 simulator for Reading depot however.

And why are they used on a Sunday, whilst 377s and 442s sit in sidings?

Basically because the stock runs enough already and further running around would increase milage meaning an increased requirement for maintenance so you can't provide enough units for the booked service without increasing the amount of units. Or in other words run them at weekends but reduce the capacity on weekdays.

 

[ScotGG]

Class 377/5 - do you know the condition of the 313s replaced in 2017? If they're still ok how possible would it be to send a few to lightly used rural southeastern services to free up networkers for very busy metro routes? Victoria routes in particular are often 4 (any train faults often cause these to be shortened first it seems) or 6 in the peaks when 8 is possible e.g. Victoria to Dartford which can get crush loaded when below 8. There's also the 6 coach 18:45 from Vic to Orpington.

This page on southeastern's site shows length of trains and levels of crowding. http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/your-journey/how-busy-is-your-train/ It shows a fair few 6 car networker services which are very busy.

Making those 8 would make a big difference as crowding is huge on some, impacting on services serving Denmark Hill and the big hospitals. The 17:04 from Vic badly need to be longer than 6. Moving 466s from rural lines to these would be a big help. 508s should have been retained unless absolutely dead instead of 'storing' after a refurb and then scrapping, moving networkers onto their routes.