class 313 and 315 replacement?

[Charlie2555]

Well, the 313s are not all that far from 40 years old and the 315s aren't far behind. I know Southern's units have been refurbished in 2010, but FCCs trains are looking a little tired. 315s are having a refresh, are they not?

Surely both classes are nearly life expired so a replacement will be needed when they're withdrawn. Will they see further service anywhere else? So what's the future?

Thanks

 

[anthony263]

The future for the class 315's is that a number of examples will be staying with East Anglia until they are withdrawn however the plan the last I heard was that the class
315's displaced by Crossrail would be used on the electrifed Cardiff Valley Lines network.

However reading in the press and speaking to some people I know at Sewta etc it does seem like there is a push being made to get the WG to instead order brand new emu's

There is at least one member on this forum who wants 3 carriage class 377's for south wales, ideally I wouldnt mind this myself.

Brand new emu's would cost a lot compared to displaced stock however with Hitachi looking for adidtional work for their new uk factory and Derby also looking for work then perhaps there could be chance for new units especially if it is tagged onto the back of another order.

One issue with the class 315's is that they are not fitted with toilets and have 3 + 2 seating as well as their age being around the same age as the existing class 142/143 pacer fleet.

As for First Capital Connect's class 313's I wouldn't be too surpised if an option is taken to order some 6 carriage emu's perhaps desiro city's from Seimens to replace them.

As for those with Southern, These I suspect will soldier on until they are replaced by the 3 carriage class 377/3's once they are replaced by newwer rolling stock in London.

We cannot forget about Scotrails class 314's which have just undergone a major refurbishment and these I think will continue in service til at least 2030.

 

[ModernRailways]

After travelling on a Class 313 the other day (FCC Great Northern from Moorgate) I must say the certainly don't look their age!

I don't know much about the 313s as I live with Metro's and Pacers, but I would have put their age at around 25 currently! Some of them certainly do look worse for wear, but if FCC painted them and kept them clean then they would certainly look fairly new.

I imagine once they reach the end of their life in the south (depending on condition) they would move to the parts of Northern that have wires. They certainly look a lot younger than Northern's 142s!

 

[Class377/5]

313 replacement will be dealt with by the franchise after next, so we should know around 2022 what's going to happen with them.

In the meantime some of Southern's 313 are expected to go to FCC for the Moorgate services to cope with the increased services on the Hertford Loop (an extra 5 units). But by then they will all be run by a single franchise.

 

[Charlie2555]

The 313s will be ancient in 2022. Will they really survive for that long?!

 

[Nym]

Stock from a similar time with less modern equipment will proberbly still be soldiering on well past then into the 2030s...

For example, they use a Westcode brake system rather than the old twin pipe systems if I'm reading the specs right, so aren't as old fassioned as they look.

 

[455driver]

Nought wrong with a Westcode brake!

 

[Nym]

Nought wrong with a Westcode brake!

Nothing at all, it's a very nice design that works brilliantly, we have moved on to smart valves but for simplicity, if you can understand the pneumatics, this is a very good system...

Is funny that over the last 100ish years we've only had four main types of braking systems...

Westinghouse Tripple Valve
'EP Brake'
Westinghouse Westcode 3 Step Brake Valve
Smart Valves...

Only needing a single pipe is very handy, but even today we have brand new twin pipe kit being sent out...

 

[A0]

Biggest challenge for replacing the 313s is ensuring capacity isn't lost.

The issue is platform lengths on the Drayton Pk - Moorgate section, which I suspect can't support 9 or 12 car trains - happy to be corrected on that.

Whilst that part of the route remains with Moorgate as the terminus, it will affect the type of units which can be used on the GN inner suburbans.

Not sure what the solution is on that - with hindsight (and hindsight's always useful in these circumstances) it was perhaps a mistake for BR to take on the GN & C from LT. That way all GN suburbans - both inner and outer would have continued to KX and ultimately into Thameslink.

What would have happened to the GN&C though is interesting to speculate. LT had already made its operation difficult by removing its access to Finsbury Park (platforms allocated to the Victoria line) - whether it would have survived this long as a Drayton Pk - Moorgate shuttle is debatable.

The 315s are much easier to replace since they could be replaced with more Electrostars - which would make the GA fleet a bit more standard.

 

[transmanche]

Not sure what the solution is on that - with hindsight (and hindsight's always useful in these circumstances) it was perhaps a mistake for BR to take on the GN & C from LT. That way all GN suburbans - both inner and outer would have continued to KX and ultimately into Thameslink.

Extend the DLR north from Bank via the Northern City line to Finsbury Park - and ultimately on to Alexandra Palace via Highgate.

 

[Aictos]

Desiro Cities but as 6 cars with a metro layout would be acceptable, that way seeing as the TOC will already be operating 8/12 car Desiro Cities, it means not having to introduce a different fleet to maintain.

A layout similar to the 378s but with 2+2 seating could be used?

 

[Surreyman]

We cannot forget about Scotrails class 314's which have just undergone a major refurbishment and these I think will continue in service til at least 2030.

I thought these had had a light 'refreshment' and were going to be replaced in the next few years??

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Given that Merseyrail is hoping to have it's new fleet up and running by 2020, perhaps the better examples of the 507/508s will be sent South to allow the 313s to make use of their dual-voldage capabilities once more with FCC or it's successor... (that is of course assuming that although the pantographs were removed- the rest of the equipment required for AC operation was left in place).

 

[Searle]

Biggest challenge for replacing the 313s is ensuring capacity isn't lost.

The issue is platform lengths on the Drayton Pk - Moorgate section, which I suspect can't support 9 or 12 car trains - happy to be corrected on that.

Whilst that part of the route remains with Moorgate as the terminus, it will affect the type of units which can be used on the GN inner suburbans.

None of the stations on the GN inner line (apart from maybe Hertford North, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield) can take more than 6 coaches, it'd be an absolutely massive job to extend them all.

I've heard thoughts (I think) of Boris wanting to maybe take over the GN line for London Overground, so maybe something similar to the 378's (which are also dual voltage? These would then take over all the inner suburban services into Moorgate.

Then the semi fasts to Peterborough and Cambridge could be put into the new Thameslink contract and go via St Pancras/London Bridge, and the Fast King's Lynn/Cambridge services could be given to East Coast (or whatever comes after it), for maybe some mini loco hauled services.

I can't see any proof of this and I might have completely made it up myself, but it seems to fit

 

[transmanche]

None of the stations on the GN inner line (apart from maybe Hertford North, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield) can take more than 6 coaches, it'd be an absolutely massive job to extend them all.

There are some stations (e.g. Palmers Green) where there ia a longer platform, but only 6-cars worth of it is now in use. Some weedkiller, some resurfacing, some yellow paint (and possibly some new edging stones) would see the longer platform length brought back into use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Extend the DLR north from Bank via the Northern City line to Finsbury Park - and ultimately on to Alexandra Palace via Highgate.

There are issues with this as regards space for tunnels in the Moorgate/Farringdon area (which I assume you're aware of, hence the smiley) though I do wonder if the NCL might be better re-integrated into LUL, especially as there'll be capacity freed up at King's Cross once many of the services tranfer over to Thameslink.

Alternatively, would it be worth looking at extending the platforms round the Hertford Loop to 8cars, and running those services through Thameslink and around the Sutton Loop- creating a 'figure-of-eight' loop service formed of 8-car sets? Presumably this would make diagramming of the 8-car versions of the new Thameslink sets easier too.

 

[anthony263]

I thought these had had a light 'refreshment' and were going to be replaced in the next few years??

Well it seems the the scottish Government have decided it might be cheaper to keep the class 314's for a few more years rather than purchase new units.

 

[A-driver]

None of the stations on the GN inner line (apart from maybe Hertford North, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield) can take more than 6 coaches, it'd be an absolutely massive job to extend them all.

The problem is extending the underground platforms.

None if the platforms on the Hertford loop, including Hertford can take more than 6 cars. Quite a few on the mainline can though, Alexandra palace, southgate, oakleigh pk, barnet (apart from down slow which can only fit 7), Hadley wood down slow and obviously potters bar, Hatfield and welwyn can all accommodate 8 cars.

The rumours about TfL taking over are just that-rumours. TfL have expressed interest in the line but the dft arnt keen on them getting any more lines at present and they are more interested in winning the anglia and southeastern suburbans at present. Many in FCC managment believe that if the inners don't make it into thameslink they will be transferred to east coast along with the Lynn's, cambs stoppers, fast peterbourghs etc.

As for 313s, apart from minor faults which seem to keep reoccurring (windscreen wipers don't turn off so need to be isolated all the time as the squeaking drives you mad!) they are still quite reliable and certainly more satisfying and responsive to drive than most modern units like 377s or 365s.

 

[A-driver]

Alternatively, would it be worth looking at extending the platforms round the Hertford Loop to 8cars, and running those services through Thameslink and around the Sutton Loop- creating a 'figure-of-eight' loop service formed of 8-car sets? Presumably this would make diagramming of the 8-car versions of the new Thameslink sets easier too.

When thameslink was first planned to use the GN one route which a lot of feasibility studies such as crew diagramming was done on was letchworth to Sutton and back via Hertford stopping at all stations. Not sure why the loop was left out in the end but from a driver point if view they found that hitchin drivers could do 2 letchworth-Sutton rounders in a day!

There is strong talk going round that we will be signing cannonbury soon on the GN for emergency shunts when moorgate or kings x is closed (all stock except 365s is cleared for cannonbury). Since they spent so much money doing up the tunnel there which only sees freight use many drivers and managers believe the Hertfords may end up going onto the NLL-works perfectly with the upgrade of the goods lines to passenger lines between Ali Pali and finsbury park.

Unfortunately moorgate is a victim of its own success. There is just no way of the capacity ever meeting the demand down there. The problem is that in the morning peak we leave people behind at stations as early as barnet and winchmore hill. Bowes park-moorgate shuttles have been discussed but means removing some of the welwyn & Hertford paths.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure why the loop was left out in the end but from a driver point if view they found that hitchin drivers could do 2 letchworth-Sutton rounders in a day!

The loop was presumably left out of the proposals because, until the dramatic U-turn a few months ago, the Network Rail 'party line' was that the east/west track switch at Blackfriars meant that the Wimbledon loop trains couldn't continue through the core. That was always the position from Thameslink go-ahead until earlier this year.

 

[transmanche]

The loop was presumably left out of the proposals because, until the dramatic U-turn a few months ago, the Network Rail 'party line' was that the east/west track switch at Blackfriars meant that the Wimbledon loop trains couldn't continue through the core. That was always the position from Thameslink go-ahead until earlier this year.

I thought he meant 'Hertford Loop' rather than 'Sutton-Wimbledon Loop'.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought he meant 'Hertford Loop' rather than 'Sutton-Wimbledon Loop'.

Ah right - yes that's also a possibility, I was 'diverted' off route by the description including Sutton...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ah right - yes that's also a possibility, I was 'diverted' off route by the description including Sutton...

That was my bad, sorry- I just thought it might've made sense to merge the 'inner-suburban' sections on both sides of the core- that is, the two 'loops' either side of London.

 

[O L Leigh]

There is strong talk going round that we will be signing cannonbury soon on the GN for emergency shunts when moorgate or kings x is closed.

Don't be surprised if you find you're not alone down there in that tunnel.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

Don't be surprised if you find you're not alone down there in that tunnel.

O L Leigh

If you are referring to paranormal activity then we already sign moorgate so are well used to that!

 

[O L Leigh]

Well Moorgate's weirdness probably has more to do with the troglodytes that work down there, not to mention the construction workers bashing foundation piles through the tunnels. No that isn't what I was referring to.

Cannonbury Tunnel is two tracks wide but was singled at some point and the track realigned so that it now runs down the middle of the tunnel. There is also a signal in there where ECS moves to Hornsey from the WA side were often held. It's a spooky place at the best of times but a WA driver nearly soiled himself while being held at the signal when without warning someone started banging on the side of his train and calling out to him. Turns out that there are (or least used to be) quite a few rough sleepers down there and this chap was hoping for a lift somewhere.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

Well Moorgate's weirdness probably has more to do with the troglodytes that work down there, not to mention the construction workers bashing foundation piles through the tunnels. No that isn't what I was referring to.

Cannonbury Tunnel is two tracks wide but was singled at some point and the track realigned so that it now runs down the middle of the tunnel. There is also a signal in there where ECS moves to Hornsey from the WA side were often held. It's a spooky place at the best of times but a WA driver nearly soiled himself while being held at the signal when without warning someone started banging on the side of his train and calling out to him. Turns out that there are (or least used to be) quite a few rough sleepers down there and this chap was hoping for a lift somewhere.

O L Leigh

Ah-I see. Havnt encountered any rough sleepers in moorgate tunnels yet! I think is be going straight off track to calm down a but if that was me!

I would Imagen if services were to start running through to the NLL they would re-double the track. As far as I know the shunt to get back to finsbury park goes about half way though the tunnel but I don't sign it (yet).

 

[transmanche]

I would Imagen if services were to start running through to the NLL they would re-double the track.

As much as I'd love to see passenger services restored, I think the reason the line was singled on electrification was to provide sufficient clearance for the OHLE. Re-doubling would probably involves a lot of (expensive) track lowering.

 

[A-driver]

As much as I'd love to see passenger services restored, I think the reason the line was singled on electrification was to provide sufficient clearance for the OHLE. Re-doubling would probably involves a lot of (expensive) track lowering.

A lot of work was recently done on the curve and I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to re-double it now. I can't see them spending all that money just for a handful of freight trains a day.

 

[Aictos]

There are some stations (e.g. Palmers Green) where there ia a longer platform, but only 6-cars worth of it is now in use. Some weedkiller, some resurfacing, some yellow paint (and possibly some new edging stones) would see the longer platform length brought back into use.

Hertford North for example can take 7 cars on both Up Hertford/Down Hertford but only 6 cars in Down Bay - Hertford could be extended but at the moment only Platform 1 looks feasible and that's only because it can be extended southwards by a few meters if that to take a 8 car.

Going north with Platform 2/3 will require a lot of work due to the bridge north of the station but bridges can always be replaced.