Class 221 for Grand Central

[M1544]

As the 180s have never been particularly reliable in their whole career I think it would be a better prospect for Grand Central to switch to a full 221 operation once crews are trained.
If they attempt to get the reliability of their 180s back up to something like normal and keep them what is to say it won’t fall back again after a few months? At least the 220/221 fleet is proven more reliable and will have a bigger pool of spares.
They need reliability as at least one of the Bradford returns to London is cancelled EVERY day presently due to no unit available and that’s been the case for most of this year which is hardly encouraging for continued 180 operation long term.

 

[D365]

Is it only me that keeps seeing reference to 142/143 on Bradford and thinks of pacers to Kings Cross.

You never know where LSL/Vintage Trains might come in next!

 

[43102EMR]

As the 180s have never been particularly reliable in their whole career I think it would be a better prospect for Grand Central to switch to a full 221 operation once crews are trained.
If they attempt to get the reliability of their 180s back up to something like normal and keep them what is to say it won’t fall back again after a few months? At least the 220/221 fleet is proven more reliable and will have a bigger pool of spares.
They need reliability as at least one of the Bradford returns to London is cancelled EVERY day presently due to no unit available and that’s been the case for most of this year which is hardly encouraging for continued 180 operation long term.

From what I’ve heard from some of the people involved with the move, that’s the long term plan if the use of these two is successful (dependent on Avanti introducing sufficient 80Xs to release them of course).

 

[Wyrleybart]

As the 180s have never been particularly reliable in their whole career I think it would be a better prospect for Grand Central to switch to a full 221 operation once crews are trained.
If they attempt to get the reliability of their 180s back up to something like normal and keep them what is to say it won’t fall back again after a few months? At least the 220/221 fleet is proven more reliable and will have a bigger pool of spares.
They need reliability as at least one of the Bradford returns to London is cancelled EVERY day presently due to no unit available and that’s been the case for most of this year which is hardly encouraging for continued 180 operation long term.

Without a doubt.
The key to a successful operation is keeping the trains well maintained, a to a very large degree the voyager fleet has had that being based at Central Rivers. However, the XC fleet has also had care from the various service depots such as Craigentinny, Tyne, Crofton, Eastleigh, Longsight etc etc.
Theoretically the GCR 180s should also have had the care at Crofton and Tyne nee Heaton but these trains need lots of, which is costly and needs funding to be successful.

Not suggesting the ex AWC 221s wouldnt be looked after to the same degree they were when based at CZ, but i havent heard who the new maintenance provider is yet, or whether some GCR drivers might need to route learn to Central Rivers.

Again, as i understand it, GC have chosen the first trains to allocate to their 221, but they really need two units to make one diagram successful. It looks like GC are not going to be able operate any more 221s until Avanti are able to hand any back - if indeed GCR are planning to operate 221s anything other than short term.

Lots of ifs and buts at the moment

 

[Royston Vasey]

I haven't been able to find any diagram lists for GC. I can see that the current timetable involves at least some interworking between Bradford and Sunderland (e.g. 14.50 BDI-KGX forms 19.27 KGX-SUN having started its day at Bradford at 06.59). Are there any self contained Bradford diagrams, or are 221s bound to do Sunderlands?

 

[WAB]

I haven't been able to find any diagram lists for GC. I can see that the current timetable involves at least some interworking between Bradford and Sunderland (e.g. 14.50 BDI-KGX forms 19.27 KGX-SUN having started its day at Bradford at 06.59). Are there any self contained Bradford diagrams, or are 221s bound to do Sunderlands?

SX: two self contained West Ridings, could be three if you changed the unit diagrams and had a short turnaround at King's Cross.
SO: one self contained West Riding, could be two if you changed the unit diagrams and changed the platforms at King's Cross.
SU: two self contained West Ridings.

 

[fgwrich]

Funny enough I came across this in one of my storage boxes this evening. I wonder if GC will produce similar publicity?

Of note, it’s interesting how proud they were to have a HST set at the time and really talked about the different and bigger buffet bar!

 

[yorkshireguy21]

My understanding is that all of the 180s are somewhat knackered

I travelled on 180112 yesterday to KGX and back and noticed that the train seemed to struggle getting past 120mph on both journeys - I don't think we ever reached 124 or 125mph. Even though there seemed to be a clear path on the return journey (departed on time), I still managed to arrive 10 minutes late into my destination!

 

[Whistler40145]

I travelled on 180112 yesterday to KGX and back and noticed that the train seemed to struggle getting past 120mph on both journeys - I don't think we ever reached 124 or 125mph. Even though there seemed to be a clear path on the return journey (departed on time), I still managed to arrive 10 minutes late into my destination!

Very much sounds like the 180s are knackered

 

[Royston Vasey]

Funny enough I came across this in one of my storage boxes this evening. I wonder if GC will produce similar publicity?

Of note, it’s interesting how proud they were to have a HST set at the time and really talked about the different and bigger buffet bar!

All of that information about the train configuration and they don't appear to have told people how to open the doors, which would seem to be the biggest useability difference!

 

[fgwrich]

All of that information about the train configuration and they don't appear to have told people how to open the doors, which would seem to be the biggest useability difference!

Sorry, it was there on the back page. I’m sure I saw a version with the pictograms on it somewhere but the leaflet only has instructions.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Funny enough I came across this in one of my storage boxes this evening. I wonder if GC will produce similar publicity?

Of note, it’s interesting how proud they were to have a HST set at the time and really talked about the different and bigger buffet bar!

Why would they? It’s obvious why the HST would require additional information, due to the doors.

 

[fgwrich]

Why would they? It’s obvious why the HST would require additional information, due to the doors.

Because the interior of a Voyager is completely different to a 180? Different luggage positions, First Class, onboard shop locations, emergency procedures for a start.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Sorry, it was there on the back page. I’m sure I saw a version with the pictograms on it somewhere but the leaflet only has instructions.

Ah, thought they would. What a nice leaflet. They could easily not have bothered at all, but they also didn't treat the passengers like idiots and told them why this old Great Western train was being used.

You know, I struggle to this day with opening HST door handles from the inside (or I would if there were any left!). I think it's a problem of short arms! (no jokes about short arms and deep pockets please!)

For the Voyagers, if they put black vinyl on it some passengers won't notice any difference, and I'm not sure location of luggage racks and first class warrant a leaflet in these post-paper days. They could manage with a short additional announcement about where first class is, and GC's catering announcements are already frequent and detailed enough that rather than saying "in Coach C" they can say "in Coach D" or whatever they renumber the cars as (I would assume they would renumber A to E as B to F as is the current nomenclature on the Adelantes)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2023 ==

SX: two self contained West Ridings, could be three if you changed the unit diagrams and had a short turnaround at King's Cross.
SO: one self contained West Riding, could be two if you changed the unit diagrams and changed the platforms at King's Cross.
SU: two self contained West Ridings.

They do have more flexibility than they used to, to step units up at Kings Cross.

I assume 221s are cleared to Sunderland, Pelaw and Heaton (are they?) but there would be all Heaton based drivers and staff to train if they did run them to Sunderland. If it's just these two for a temporary period I can't see them doing this.

 

[Britannia94]

The introduction of the class 221 can't come quick enough, currently waiting for the 1023 Bradford - London Kings Cross service and it's been delayed due a to a fault on the train.

 

[gledhill56]

The introduction of the class 221 can't come quick enough, currently waiting for the 1023 Bradford - London Kings Cross service and it's been delayed due a to a fault on the train.

Might be waiting a while as it’s now showing as cancelled.

 

[Trainguy34]

The introduction of the class 221 can't come quick enough, currently waiting for the 1023 Bradford - London Kings Cross service and it's been delayed due a to a fault on the train.

Now cancelled and running empty to Crofton Depot - Traction equipment according to RTT
EDIT: Might be worth walking over to Forster Square and seeing if you can get on the 11:00 Northern to Leeds then and the 11:45 to Kings X. Looks like an IC225 set so extra nice if you can get it.

 

[sprinterguy]

I assume 221s are cleared to Sunderland, Pelaw and Heaton (are they?) but there would be all Heaton based drivers and staff to train if they did run them to Sunderland. If it's just these two for a temporary period I can't see them doing this.

Yeah, 221s are cleared for the full length of the Durham Coast route, and operated that way a handful of times in Virgin Trains days. Not sure whether a set has ever been onto Heaton depot specifically, but I wouldn't envisage any physical restrictions there seeing as it's handled pretty much every other form of ECML traction over the decades.

 

[Britannia94]

Now cancelled and running empty to Crofton Depot - Traction equipment according to RTT

Service was just cancelled on station screens prior to unit pulling out of station. An announcement has been made that it's cancelled and passengers to listen for further updates, one passenger has been told next service is until 1450 this afternoon. Thankfully my ticket allows me to travel with LNER but I feel for those that don't have this as an option.

 

[Trainguy34]

Service was just cancelled on station screens prior to unit pulling out of station. An announcement has been made that it's cancelled and passengers to listen for further updates, one passenger has been told next service is until 1450 this afternoon. Thankfully my ticket allows me to travel with LNER but I feel for those that don't have this as an option.

EDIT: Might be worth walking over to Forster Square and seeing if you can get on the 11:00 Northern to Leeds then and the 11:45 to Kings X. Looks like an IC225 set so extra nice if you can get it.

See attached post.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yeah, 221s are cleared for the full length of the Durham Coast route, and operated that way a handful of times in Virgin Trains days. Not sure whether a set has ever been onto Heaton depot specifically, but I wouldn't envisage any physical restrictions there seeing as it's handled pretty much every other form of ECML traction over the decades.

Just to point out that Heaton wouldn’t handle them anyway. Grand Central changed the overnight base for their 180s from Heaton to Tyne Yard earlier this year (the same base as XC)

 

[sprinterguy]

Just to point out that Heaton wouldn’t handle them anyway. Grand Central changed the overnight base for their 180s from Heaton to Tyne Yard earlier this year (the same base as XC)

Ah, hadn't realised GC had transferred to Tyne Yard now.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Just to point out that Heaton wouldn’t handle them anyway. Grand Central changed the overnight base for their 180s from Heaton to Tyne Yard earlier this year (the same base as XC)

Aha! I didn't know this. They should certainly be able to manage an occasional Voyager for light maintenance, they'd still need someone to drive it there of course!

 

[fgwrich]

Just to point out that Heaton wouldn’t handle them anyway. Grand Central changed the overnight base for their 180s from Heaton to Tyne Yard earlier this year (the same base as XC)

Presumably that’s an Arriva decision, saves them money and they can stable alongside their XC and DB cousins. I wonder if it is having any effect on maintenance though - even if they were using Heaton for stabling, there will still be technicians on site.

 

[MattRat]

Just to point out that Heaton wouldn’t handle them anyway. Grand Central changed the overnight base for their 180s from Heaton to Tyne Yard earlier this year (the same base as XC)

Sounds like they had a plan to use Voyagers for a while, and did work behind the scenes to make the transition as easy as possible.

 

[class 9]

Aha! I didn't know this. They should certainly be able to manage an occasional Voyager for light maintenance, they'd still need someone to drive it there of course!

The maintenance/ servicing at Tyne Yard is done by Arriva Traincare, so makes sense for GC to use it.

 

[_toommm_]

Do the 180s ever run in eco mode where they shut down certain engines? I was on 108 yesterday and the leading driving car had no engine from York to Sunderland, although I suspect it was a fault.

 

[GWVillager]

Do the 180s ever run in eco mode where they shut down certain engines? I was on 108 yesterday and the leading driving car had no engine from York to Sunderland, although I suspect it was a fault.

I presume that would be a fault, given the 180’s reputation. Similar things happen regularly with IETs.

 

[Driver068]

The maintenance/ servicing at Tyne Yard is done by Arriva Traincare, so makes sense for GC to use it.

The move to Tyne from Heaton is unrelated. 221s are not going to be used on the Durham Coast, West Riding only. All the gauge testing amd runs to KGX have been done on that route by Bradford train crew only.
221s are not going to be a replacement only a short term lease, same as EMR 180s which will be kept at Tyne. Crofton will be dealing with the 221s for maintenance. The idea is these 4 additional units will be used only for rotation in order for GCs current fleet of 180s to be repaired accordingly. Then ultimately when suits handed back. The medium to long term future will be some sort of Bi-Mode given KGXs position on diesel only traction.

 

[800001]

221143 currently out on test, running as 5A21 Crofton depot to York, and 5C21 York to Wakefield Kirkgate.

Paths from RTT below:-

Realtime Trains | 5A21 1617 Crofton Depot to York | 10/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 5A21 1617 departure from Crofton Depot to York on 10/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5C21 1753 York to Wakefield Kirkgate | 10/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 5C21 1753 departure from York to Wakefield Kirkgate on 10/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk