Class 221 for Grand Central

[spotify95]

Is it? That means XC soldiers on with severe undercapacity yet again.

Also be a fairly hefty downgrade for GC's passengers unless they intend on rearranging the seating, but that would seem out of scope for a "refresh"!

Going from a Class 180 to a Class 221 is a downgrade in its own right - welcome to the world of "unable to get any RF signal and having severely congested Wi-Fi to the point of nbot being able to use it".

Also CrossCountry need the 221s more than Grand Central. The latter could have had EMR's 180s so as to at least get some sort of workable fleet out of the lot of 180s.

 

[Nym]

Except GC is paying Beacon Rail Leasing the money for them and XC are not.

 

[liamf656]

Going from a Class 180 to a Class 221 is a downgrade in its own right - welcome to the world of "unable to get any RF signal and having severely congested Wi-Fi to the point of nbot being able to use it".

Also CrossCountry need the 221s more than Grand Central. The latter could have had EMR's 180s so as to at least get some sort of workable fleet out of the lot of 180s.

But that’s the issue, EMR’s 180s were hardly any good either so adding them won’t make anything better. The 221s are much more reliable and by bringing them in it will hopefully improve the service a bit more. I’m not sure why you always mention the ability to get signal but it isn’t really relevant in the bigger picture

While Crosscountry would be better off with the extra 221s I don’t think it would have happened with the DFT in control, even if Grand Central didn’t take them either

 

[357]

Except GC is paying Beacon Rail Leasing the money for them and XC are not.

That is where many people in this thread are not understanding the reality of the situation.

it is not GC's problem that the government had the option and decided not to send these units to XC.

 

[class 9]

That is where many people in this thread are not understanding the reality of the situation.

it is not GC's problem that the government had the option and decided not to send these units to XC.

Well according to XCs MD they've sufficient Voyagers, hence no replacements for the HSTs when they eventually retire.

 

[Wyrleybart]

That is where many people in this thread are not understanding the reality of the situation.

it is not GC's problem that the government had the option and decided not to send these units to XC.

That is the truth.
The DfT believe the XC franchise can continue to offer 4 car class 220s and 221s on busy Anglo Scottish and Manchester-Bomo services, and expect pax to stand when there are no seats.

Take York as an example where two northbound TPE trains from York to Newcastle are cancelled most hours (xx:07 and xx:21) leaving the passengers off what should have been 5 car 802s to wedge onto 4 and 5 car voyagers, already very well loaded with XC's own punters. If you were an XC punter on your Plymouth-Glasgow voyager, already on a cramped and unsuitable train due to Richard Branson's dalliance with airliner style "tube" trains how would you feel about being even further wedged by the constant cancellations of a train company so bad the government had to take it over.

But until DfT acknowledge that pax paying sky high amounts for tickets should actually have a seat, things won't change. In fact they will deteriorate in three months time when the HSTs are withdrawn. The one glimmer of hope might be that Arriva currently negotiating the next XC contract for after October say "you know what, here's the keys" and leavethe DfT with yet another OLR to set up.

 

[greyman42]

Take York as an example where two northbound TPE trains from York to Newcastle are cancelled most hours (xx:07 and xx:21) leaving the passengers off what should have been 5 car 802s to wedge onto 4 and 5 car voyagers, already very well loaded with XC's own punters. If you were an XC punter on your Plymouth-Glasgow voyager, already on a cramped and unsuitable train due to Richard Branson's dalliance with airliner style "tube" trains how would you feel about being even further wedged by the constant cancellations of a train company so bad the government had to take it over.

Cross Country have stopped accepting TPE tickets from York. I don't know about other stations.

 

[Banham7]

Training appears to have now begun: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:N43528/2023-07-14/detailed

Realtime Trains | 5G21 1515 Monk Bretton Loop to Crofton Depot | 14/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5G21 1515 departure from Monk Bretton Loop to Crofton Depot on 14/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5F69 0800 Crofton Depot to Doncaster Roberts Rd Rp Gb | 17/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5F69 0800 departure from Crofton Depot to Doncaster Roberts Rd Rp Gb on 17/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5G69 1434½ Doncaster Roberts Rd Rp Gb to Crofton Depot | 17/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5G69 1434½ departure from Doncaster Roberts Rd Rp Gb to Crofton Depot on 17/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Z21 1704½ Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot | 19/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z21 1704½ departure from Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot on 19/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Z22 1848 Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot | 20/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z22 1848 departure from Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot on 20/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[M1544]

I can confirm ex Avanti voyager 221143 reached Bradford Interchange and Halifax on test on the evening of 19 July 2023 for Grand Central

 

[dereksingh291]

I can confirm ex Avanti voyager 221143 reached Bradford Interchange and Halifax on test on the evening of 19 July 2023 for Grand Central

Was it in Grand Central livery?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can confirm ex Avanti voyager 221143 reached Bradford Interchange and Halifax on test on the evening of 19 July 2023 for Grand Central

Thanks for the update. May I politely ask how you can confirm - did you see it? Rather exciting news to someone who, like me, likes Super Voyagers very much.

 

[CR165022]

Was it in Grand Central livery?

Still in ex Avanti

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Still in ex Avanti

I suppose it’s to be expected so early on.

 

[357]

Thanks for the update. May I politely ask how you can confirm - did you see it? Rather exciting news to someone who, like me, likes Super Voyagers very much.

Friends of Mirfield Railway Station Action Group | Grand central class 221 at Mirfield station hopefully it will be in service soon

Grand central class 221 at Mirfield station hopefully it will be in service soon

www.facebook.com

 

[ST156]

221143 is on a test run to King's Cross this evening.

Realtime Trains | 5Z22 1848 Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot | 20/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z22 1848 departure from Crofton Depot to Crofton Depot on 20/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[hexagon789]

Was it in Grand Central livery?

This is how it currently looks:

221143

Low Moor 19/07/2023 Grand Central

flic.kr

(Photo credit Rail Photo's Online flickr)

 

[Wyrleybart]

Was it in Grand Central livery?

There is some speculation about the 221s and Grans Central, and difficult to establish the truth. One post I saw on a forum yesterday (cant remember which) suggested that 221142 and 143 were only temporarily leased by Grand Central as a stopgap to get their fleet of 180s back into a decent state. If that is the case then Grand Central would not be applying anything more than vinyl branding surely. I wouldn't subscribe to that view myself, but it is all about the money.

 

[dan4291]

Passed this train last night, in unbranded Avanti livery with Grand Central in the front destination screen.

 

[The Middle]

One post I saw on a forum yesterday (cant remember which) suggested that 221142 and 143 were only temporarily leased by Grand Central as a stopgap to get their fleet of 180s back into a decent state.

This is indeed currently the case

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is some speculation about the 221s and Grans Central, and difficult to establish the truth. One post I saw on a forum yesterday (cant remember which) suggested that 221142 and 143 were only temporarily leased by Grand Central as a stopgap to get their fleet of 180s back into a decent state.

Yes, it must be remembered that no actual confirmation of the full VT 221 fleet being transferred to replace the 180s came to fruition in the end, so the idea of any more than just these two being sent over following 805 introduction does remain speculation, really.

 

[GWVillager]

Yes, it must be remembered that no actual confirmation of the full VT 221 fleet being transferred to replace the 180s came to fruition in the end, so the idea of any more than just these two being sent over following 805 introduction does remain speculation, really.

Still, it seems unlikely that GC will go to the effort of training crews and maintenance staff for a few months of two units.

 

[43102EMR]

Still, it seems unlikely that GC will go to the effort of training crews and maintenance staff for a few months of two units.

Hull Trains did the same with the HSTs they hired from GWR, albeit this was only a stop gap until the 802s came in at the end of 2019.

 

[Kite159]

I presume when the voyagers do enter service on Grand Central it will be a case of no seat reservations (on those services run with a 221) due to the different seating layout between a 221 & a 180. Unless they are going to keep the 221s to a set diagram with their own seat reservation map?

 

[GWVillager]

Hull Trains did the same with the HSTs they hired from GWR, albeit this was only a stop gap until the 802s came in at the end of 2019.

Indeed, it's possible, but given the current economic situation seems unlikely (I'd say at least, there may well be others who know more about how these things work).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I presume when the voyagers do enter service on Grand Central it will be a case of no seat reservations due to the different seating layout between a 221 & a 180. Unless they are going to keep the 221s to a set diagram with their own seat reservation map?

They should remain in tact on the North East route as I believe it’s only the Bradford services that 142/143 will be used on.

 

[Topological]

They should remain in tact on the North East route as I believe it’s only the Bradford services that 142/143 will be used on.

Is it only me that keeps seeing reference to 142/143 on Bradford and thinks of pacers to Kings Cross.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still, it seems unlikely that GC will go to the effort of training crews and maintenance staff for a few months of two units.

I think even the apparent temporary use of 221s is quite surprising given that there‘s now 4 x 180s spare from EMR that could presumably fulfill any short term requirement.

(Always assuming there’d be little or no training requirements or maintenance issues.)

 

[43102EMR]

They should remain in tact on the North East route as I believe it’s only the Bradford services that 142/143 will be used on.

From what I’ve heard, there will be some use to Sunderland but more of a focus on the Bradford route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

I think even the apparent temporary use of 221s is quite surprising given that there‘s now 4 x 180s spare from EMR that could presumably fulfill any short term requirement.

(Always assuming there’d be little or no training requirements or maintenance issues.)

According to Clinnick, 2 are going to GC from EMR - the other 2 are at Ely, presumably as they’re simply not fit for service (like their other former units stored there which people always seem to complain about!)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it only me that keeps seeing reference to 142/143 on Bradford and thinks of pacers to Kings Cross.

If only The former are of course no strangers to Bradford.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

From what I’ve heard, there will be some use to Sunderland but more of a focus on the Bradford route.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[WAB]

I presume when the voyagers do enter service on Grand Central it will be a case of no seat reservations (on those services run with a 221) due to the different seating layout between a 221 & a 180. Unless they are going to keep the 221s to a set diagram with their own seat reservation map?

I’m sure they’ll want to get as much use out of the more reliable 221s - perhaps two diagrams on certain days?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

According to Clinnick, 2 are going to GC from EMR - the other 2 are at Ely, presumably as they’re simply not fit for service (like their other former units stored there which people always seem to complain about!)

Trialling two Voyagers before acquiring more makes more sense given the cost of route clearance and crew training. The 180s have become available long before the 221s are to be introduced, so the 221s can't have been leased as a stop-gap pending the arrival of 180s, surely?

My understanding is that all of the 180s are somewhat knackered, but some are in pretty bad state. If GC are going for 180s rather than Voyagers, either they're holding out for a new fleet or they're abandoning the operation in the long-term. It is clear that investment and interest by Arriva (and DB) is variable, so I don't suppose anything is off the table.