Class 221 for Grand Central

[pokemonsuper9]

I think you might of meant 18 221's?

I was referring to the ones that GC will be getting, not including the other 10 that do not have a set future yet.

 

[XAM2175]

The latest Rail Express (July 2023), mentions this quickly: 221142 and 221143 are being reactivated for a "potential return to service" on Grand Central's Bradford services "later in the year" - which I guess elevates it to "official rumour" status

 

[WAB]

The latest Rail Express (July 2023), mentions this quickly: 221142 and 221143 are being reactivated for a "potential return to service" on Grand Central's Bradford services "later in the year" - which I guess elevates it to "official rumour" status

Well it's official they are getting two at any rate. The information in the public domain is getting fleshed out, little by little.

 

[Royston Vasey]

That being the retirement home?

One could unkindly describe GC as being a retirement home for old trains throughout their history!

 

[Railperf]

Disappointing that GC aren't ordering a bi-mode fleet and that DfT are allowing continued diesel running under the wires for the foreseeable future.

 

[stevieinselby]

Disappointing that GC aren't ordering a bi-mode fleet and that DfT are allowing continued diesel running under the wires for the foreseeable future.

As a general rule, it is more environmentally friendly and better financial sense to keep using existing kit until it wears out than to replace it with more efficient kit before it is life expired.
With the 221s available to a good home, and no other obvious takers for them, it would be wasteful to bin them off and buy new trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

Any ideas when the first Voyagers will run? December timetable change?

 

[Railperf]

As a general rule, it is more environmentally friendly and better financial sense to keep using existing kit until it wears out than to replace it with more efficient kit before it is life expired.
With the 221s available to a good home, and no other obvious takers for them, it would be wasteful to bin them off and buy new trains.

I can see there are some good points there. But Hull trains tried that with Class 180's unitl they realised just how much TLC the units required. While it is accepted that binning older units can seem a waste, the performance end reliability benefits of buying in a tried and tested new fleet speak for themselves. The 221's could be better employed on services that spend much less time under electric wires.

 

[Iskra]

I can see there are some good points there. But Hull trains tried that with Class 180's unitl they realised just how much TLC the units required. While it is accepted that binning older units can seem a waste, the performance end reliability benefits of buying in a tried and tested new fleet speak for themselves. The 221's could be better employed on services that spend much less time under electric wires.

I don’t think it’s intended as a long term solution

 

[Energy]

Any ideas when the first Voyagers will run? December timetable change?

Awaiting the trip report!

 

[endofthetunnel]

Any ideas when the first Voyagers will run? December timetable change?

I don’t think there’ll be any correlation with timetable changes, they’re just acquiring an extra train or two to reduce cancellations. So just as soon as there’s enough trained staff for them. They’re capable of keeping the same paths, diagrams etc as far as I know.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suspect the 2x221s will remain based at Central Rivers, like all the other 220/221s.
No point in inventing a new maintenance base for a provisional period.
Are they cleared south of Doncaster on the ECML and on the GC routes off the ECML, and any diversion routes?
There will be paperwork issues no doubt.

 

[WAB]

I suspect the 2x221s will remain based at Central Rivers, like all the other 220/221s.
No point in inventing a new maintenance base for a provisional period.
Are they cleared south of Doncaster on the ECML and on the GC routes off the ECML, and any diversion routes?
There will be paperwork issues no doubt.

Not to my knowledge, but it should be a relatively simple task given the use of Meridians previously.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect the 2x221s will remain based at Central Rivers, like all the other 220/221s.
No point in inventing a new maintenance base for a provisional period.

Crofton already services Voyagers overnight, and was the home depot for the Hull Trains Pioneers.

Clearly they can go to Central Rivers if heavier work is needed.

 

[John C]

I suspect the 2x221s will remain based at Central Rivers, like all the other 220/221s.
No point in inventing a new maintenance base for a provisional period.
Are they cleared south of Doncaster on the ECML and on the GC routes off the ECML, and any diversion routes?
There will be paperwork issues no doubt.

I expect the 2 will be based at Crofton rather than Central Rivers which operationally makes more sense being on the route they will serve and Crofton currently services XC 220/221’s, I would imagine GC drivers won’t have route knowledge to Central Rivers either.

 

[Wyrleybart]

One could unkindly describe GC as being a retirement home for old trains throughout their history!

Hardly.
GCR have only really used HSTs and 180s in the last ten plus years. The 180s are still in service and the HSTs passed to EMT. EMT used the HSTs pretty much into the final months of their HST operations. Therefore the ex GC HSTs were actually retired by EMR

 

[DanNCL]

Are they cleared south of Doncaster on the ECML and on the GC routes off the ECML, and any diversion routes?
There will be paperwork issues no doubt.

Not to my knowledge, but it should be a relatively simple task given the use of Meridians previously.

221s are cleared on the Durham Coast, presumably it was done in case XC ever needed to divert that way.
221s aren’t cleared South of Doncaster but should be easy enough to clear with 222s being cleared there.
No class of 22x is currently cleared to Bradford Interchange.

 

[MarkyT]

XC removed the tilting mechanism yonks ago - my understanding is the 221's have fixed bars in place of it, to save on maintenance costs. If memory serves correctly, Stafford to Birmingham is about the only corridor of the entire XC network that could have made use of it anyway

Stafford - Wolverhampton is nearly dead straight, supporting up to 125MU/125EPS running for most of the distance without any tilt activation. Wolverhampton - Birmingham is much slower with no part higher than 75mph.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Hardly.
GCR have only really used HSTs and 180s in the last ten plus years. The 180s are still in service and the HSTs passed to EMT. EMT used the HSTs pretty much into the final months of their HST operations. Therefore the ex GC HSTs were actually retired by EMR

I remember well the state of the six power cars when they first acquired them, at a time when there were very few PCs unwanted by FGW, GNER etc; First were buying, refurbishing and MTUing everything they could get their hands on, such as the Cotswold machines and ex-VXC. I think of the unused ones, only 43101 was in a worse state at the time than the GC PCs.

The 43/4s as they became, after the most extensive refurbishment any PC power cars ever got, did go to EMT but they were the dogs of the fleet when GC got them. They deserve much credit.

Their Mk 3s were again a mix of ex-VWC LHCS and a handful of HST coaches, but needed refurb and reconfiguration.

The 180s have been cast off many times (FGW, HT, FGW again, now EMR) and would be nobody's ideal choice.

And don't forget taking unwanted LNER Mk 4s for Blackpool... they weren't off lease by chance, they were chosen as the first to go and they gave them a very thorough rework including corrosion repairs.

This wasn't a dig, just a comment that they've never had the luxury of new stock like Hull Trains have had, with the financial backing they had. Even Arriva don't seem to want to commit to new stock which First have done on the other side.

They deserve immense credit for what they did to the power cars and have done an excellent job in managing the 180s all this time when many were calling for them to be melted down years ago. TfW got a black and golden egg when they landed some fresh Mk 4s and they're rightly their premier fleet.


As for these 221s (still no confirmation of ten - feeling this should be in Speculative Discussion!) the two off lease as stated are not the cream of the fleet, and neither will be the eight that follow, if they follow. Their condition though will be far better than when all their other stock has been at acquisition, with a lot more life left in it.

 

[ExRes]

EMT used the HSTs pretty much into the final months of their HST operations. Therefore the ex GC HSTs were actually retired by EMR

And, although not in passenger service, are still in operation with RailAdventure, four working and two currently waiting on repaints

 

[Royston Vasey]

And, although not in passenger service, are still in operation with RailAdventure, four working and two currently waiting on repaints

But when GC got them, they were a mess and wanted by nobody else, and were never really fixed until Brush MTU'ed them.

I'm drawing the parallels with these 221s (dragging back to topic) because it would appear, despite common sense and what this forum would like to be the case, there are actually no other takers for these stored 221s... if XC wanted them (and the DfT authorised it) they'd surely get them.

 

[The Planner]

Stafford - Wolverhampton is nearly dead straight, supporting up to 125MU/125EPS running for most of the distance without any tilt activation. Wolverhampton - Birmingham is much slower with no part higher than 75mph.

Plenty of EPS on the Stone Manchester section.

 

[Roast Veg]

As a general rule, it is more environmentally friendly and better financial sense to keep using existing kit until it wears out than to replace it with more efficient kit before it is life expired.
With the 221s available to a good home, and no other obvious takers for them, it would be wasteful to bin them off and buy new trains.

Particulate emissions from diesel trains are terrible for air quality in station areas, which is a major problem in cities.

 

[Wyrleybart]

But when GC got them, they were a mess and wanted by nobody else, and were never really fixed until Brush MTU'ed them.

Pretty much like the other Valenta engined power cars really except maybe the most tired.

I'm drawing the parallels with these 221s (dragging back to topic) because it would appear, despite common sense and what this forum would like to be the case, there are actually no other takers for these stored 221s... if XC wanted them (and the DfT authorised it) they'd surely get them.

Pardon me but unless you are a Rosco or Alstom nee Bombardier maanger at Central Rivers you won't know the current condition of 221142/3, so cannot make the comment that they are the "worst" of the AWC batch. You can only conclude that they were the first two of the twenty to be stood down, but that maybe have been a mileage accrued reason. I believe the instruction to Central Rivers engineers, for the first few months from May 2022 was to continue to treat them as thought they were still in traffic and give them all the appropriate cyclic exams etc.

Perhaps at that time the fleet owners were optimistic that DfT would lease them for XC. Perhaps it was the case that by October 2022 it became a little more obvious that the DfT were not interested, so they employed ROG to drag them off to Worksop, even though they were perfectly driveable under their oen power. Indeed had they been driven instead of hauled, the one would not have had it's wheels trashed. Both sets havebeen dragged back to Central Rivers and given a series of exams, wheel attention etc, and are no doubt as good as any in the fleet.

I suggest the only reason those 221s are not part of the XC fleet is because DfT still don't feel XC need them despite losing fice 2+7 HSTs in four months.

 

[MarkyT]

Particulate emissions from diesel trains are terrible for air quality in station areas, which is a major problem in cities.

Although XC and other interested parties have previously announced a proposal to retrofit Voyagers with some traction batteries in a hybrid configuration, which could allow diesels to be shut down around stations. I've not heard much about this idea lately though. If a solution for this has been designed for one company then it's plausible another might use it too.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Although XC and other interested parties have previously announced a proposal to retrofit Voyagers with some traction batteries in a hybrid configuration, which could allow diesels to be shut down around stations. I've not heard much about this idea lately though. If a solution for this has been designed for one company then it's plausible another might use it too.

I am guessing the industry was waiting for the results of 165004 and 168329. Don't think the former has made it back into traffic yet and I believe the latter is not exactly setting the world on fire.

 

[MarkyT]

I am guessing the industry was waiting for the results of 165004 and 168329. Don't think the former has made it back into traffic yet and I believe the latter is not exactly setting the world on fire.

Class 16x don't have an existing proven electric drive-train to hook into though, so I'd argue that Voyager hybridisation should be easier, assuming engineers can find sufficient space for the batteries onboard and the traction control system can be reconfigured to manage the task without complete replacement.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Pardon me but unless you are a Rosco or Alstom nee Bombardier maanger at Central Rivers you won't know the current condition of 221142/3, so cannot make the comment that they are the "worst" of the AWC batch. You can only conclude that they were the first two of the twenty to be stood down, but that maybe have been a mileage accrued reason. I believe the instruction to Central Rivers engineers, for the first few months from May 2022 was to continue to treat them as thought they were still in traffic and give them all the appropriate cyclic exams etc.

You seem desperate to argue with me but my whole point was that these 221s are almost certainly the best stock that's ever been transferred to GC. I am precisely not saying they're demic.

And sorry but those six PCs were worse than anything in service at the time and were refurbished poorly by DML. They were very much not the same as the other Valentas in constant use back then.

 

[MarkyT]

Plenty of EPS on the Stone Manchester section.

Which I assume only Pendolinos can take advantage of today (and any remaining AWC Voyagers that are unusually routed that way).

 

[crablab]

so I'd argue that Voyager hybridisation should be easier, assuming engineers can find sufficient space for the batteries onboard and the traction control system can be reconfigured to manage the task without complete replacement.

I would imagine, purely speculatively, that the complexity and cost of modifying the TMS and associated equipment specified & designed using late 90s hardware & software would be prohibitive. I don't know, of course, but my experience of enterprise legacy software is that once it's out of support then the best you can do is keep it going without anything going drastically wrong. Changing things is fraught with difficulties.