Class 195 potential allocations

[Philip]

What do people think the allocations will be for the 55 x class 195 trains supposedly set to work the diesel Northern Connect services? Been thinking about it myself and come up with this:

Blackpool to York: 7 x 195 diagrams
Man Airport to Barrow: 5 x 195/0 or 195/1
Man Airport to Bradford: 4 x 195/0 or 195/1
Man Airport to Liverpool via Warrington: 3 x 195/0 or 195/1
Liverpool to Bradford: 4 x 195/0 or 195/1
Chester to Leeds: 5 x 195/0 or 195/1
Nottingham to Bradford: 6 x 195/0 or 195/1
Sheffield to Lincoln: 4 x 195/0 or 195/1

So that's 38 diagrams so far..do any of them look a bit stretched and have I missed any routes off? Assuming 6 or 7 units will be kept aside for maintenance, this will still leave around 10 units spare. Can we expect the doubling up of a few services or could some non-Connect services have 195s working them?

Also, which routes are more likely to get 3-car units, or doubled up units?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Will the Sheffield to Lincoln not run from Leeds via Wakey Kirkgate and Barnsley? If so, that's an extra 2 units at least unless that was included in your calculations.

 

[northwichcat]

The Manchester Airport to Cumbria services will need to be 6 car at peak times and the CLC Manchester-Liverpool will need to be at least 4 cars, possibly 6 at peak times.

I can't see both the Liverpool and Manchester Airport services not continuing beyond Bradford to Leeds at peak times even if some off-peak services only go to Bradford.

I think the 2 car 195s would only really be suitable for some of the quieter services serving Leeds unless they are doubled up.

 

[IanXC]

You're missing Sheffield to Hull (strongly suspect the current through service to Bridlington and Scarborough will be split).

 

[ainsworth74]

You're missing Sheffield to Hull (strongly suspect the current through service to Bridlington and Scarborough will be split).

Perhaps going to keep 158s? I believe Middlesbrough - Carlisle is going to be 158s rather than 195s.

 

[Class 170101]

Blackpool to York: 7 x 195 diagrams

I thought Northern were also serving Scarborough from York potentially with this service?

 

[Rail Bus]

The Manchester Airport to Cumbria services will need to be 6 car at peak times and the CLC Manchester-Liverpool will need to be at least 4 cars, possibly 6 at peak times.

I can't see both the Liverpool and Manchester Airport services not continuing beyond Bradford to Leeds at peak times even if some off-peak services only go to Bradford.

I think the 2 car 195s would only really be suitable for some of the quieter services serving Leeds unless they are doubled up.

I see there is to be 3 Northern Connect services between Man Vic and Bradford, so does that mean one will stop at Mytholmrord and Sowerby Bridge, or will there be a 4th regular Northern stopper as well? Sounds a lot to me

 

[northwichcat]

I see there is to be 3 Northern Connect services between Man Vic and Bradford, so does that mean one will stop at Mytholmrord and Sowerby Bridge, or will there be a 4th regular Northern stopper as well? Sounds a lot to me

They'll be an hourly Southport-Rochdale-Dewsbury-Leeds service as well which will be operated by the cascaded 170s and will serve some of the smaller stations in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought Northern were also serving Scarborough from York potentially with this service?

No that was an option DfT looked at in the event of TPE no longer serving Scarborough and there being enough demand for a regular direct Leeds-Scarborough service but as it is TPE will continue running Liverpool-Scarborough but will just re-route it between Liverpool and Manchester and speed it up between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[Rail Bus]

Yes but Mytholmrord and Sowerby Bridge currently have 2tph, and are required an hourly service to Bradford. The Southport to Leeds alone does neither

 

[D6975]

I thought Northern were also serving Scarborough from York potentially with this service?

The Northern service to Scarborough isn't going to be a Connect service, it's going to be a local from York. They will probably run from the NE bay, platform 2, which at the moment sees little or no use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Northern service to Scarborough isn't going to be a Connect service, it's going to be a local from York. They will probably run from the NE bay, platform 2, which at the moment sees little or no use.

The introduction of this service does however mean that if the proposed new station at Haxby (IIRC) gets built it won't necessarily slow down the TPE services.

 

[clagmonster]

You're missing Sheffield to Hull (strongly suspect the current through service to Bridlington and Scarborough will be split).

The interactive map when the franchise announcement was made had the Hull - Sheffields as new units and running through to Chesterfield between the peaks. Presumably in the peaks there will be a pair on something hence there won't be enough units to run to Chesterfield.

The hourly Brid will run through to Leeds. I see no indication as to where the hourly Scarborough will go.

 

[Philip]

Does the Barrow service need 6-car formations in peak times really? Don't forget most of the places on that route will be served by an hourly fast 5-car TPE service, as well as the Northern Connect Blackpool service which will be 3-car in off peak and 6-car in peak hours. Wigan will have 6 other services running via Atherton and via Bolton which ought to provide decent capacity even without the Barrow service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The interactive map when the franchise announcement was made had the Hull - Sheffields as new units and running through to Chesterfield between the peaks....

Be careful here, because the interactive map had some routes with "new" trains and some with "brand new" trains. I recall some people were happy to announce the 319s as "new" when [old] Northern got them.

 

[clagmonster]

I've just revisited the map to check that point. 13 out of 17 trains on the route to be operated by brand new trains.

Looking at the map, the following diesel routes are listed for brand new trains:
Hull-Sheffield (Chesterfield between peaks) 13 per day, so probably 4 units
Bradford Interchange - Nottingham 10 per day, so probably 6 units a day
Bradford - Liverpool / Manchester Airport hourly, so probably 8 diagrams, possibly more with through running to Leeds
Chester - Leeds hourly, probably 5 diagrams

On your point of new rather than brand new, I see Lincoln - Leeds, Liverpool - Manchester Airport via the CLC, Blackpool - York and Barrow - Manchester Airport are described as such.

So the routes described as getting brand new trains equate to approximately 23 diagrams, plus any used for pairs or Leeds extensions of the services that may or may not terminate at Bradford. If the services listed for new, rather than brand new DMUs all get 195s, that would give us around 21 more diagrams, bringing us to 44. That probably isn't far off once some workings have a pair and we allow some to be on maintenance.

 

[Philip]

I've just realised that only the 4-car EMUs will work the electric Manchester based services, which will include Blackpool. I doubt platform lengths will allow for any doubling up of the 4-car units to make an 8-car train, so is it possible a couple of 3-car 195s will be diagrammed to run in multiple on the peak time Blackpool services? A 6-car unit seems more appropriate on this route at peak times than a 4-car one does.

 

[northwichcat]

I've just realised that only the 4-car EMUs will work the electric Manchester based services, which will include Blackpool. I doubt platform lengths will allow for any doubling up of the 4-car units to make an 8-car train, so is it possible a couple of 3-car 195s will be diagrammed to run in multiple on the peak time Blackpool services? A 6-car unit seems more appropriate on this route at peak times than a 4-car one does.

I'm not sure what you mean by only. The North West is to get 12 additional 319s (which won't work most current 323 services or any Northern Connect services), 12 x new 4 car EMUs (which will usually work services currently operated by 323s) and some of the new 3 car EMUs which are set to be used on Blackpool-Airport services in single and double formations, as well as some other services.

Looking at 319 diagrams:
Extending Liverpool-Preston services to Blackpool will need at least 1 extra diagram
Hazel Grove to Preston will need 4 diagrams
The new additional Hazel Grove to Bolton service will need 3 diagrams
Stalybridge to Blackpool will need 5 diagrams
That's 13 new diagrams

Currently there's 16 diagrams and 20 units but one of the spare 319s is apparently going to be used on a peak time Hazel Grove extra soon, so that'll mean 17 diagrams but the Manchester-Liverpool via Chat Moss semi-fast going to TPE will free up 3 units.

That'll mean 27 units out of 32 in daily use.

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure what you mean by only. The North West is to get 12 additional 319s (which won't work most current 323 services or any Northern Connect services), 12 x new 4 car EMUs (which will usually work services currently operated by 323s) and some of the new 3 car EMUs which are set to be used on Blackpool-Airport services in single and double formations, as well as some other services.

Looking at 319 diagrams:
Extending Liverpool-Preston services to Blackpool will need at least 1 extra diagram
Hazel Grove to Preston will need 4 diagrams
The new additional Hazel Grove to Bolton service will need 3 diagrams
Stalybridge to Blackpool will need 5 diagrams
That's 13 new diagrams

Currently there's 16 diagrams and 20 units but one of the spare 319s is apparently going to be used on a peak time Hazel Grove extra soon, so that'll mean 17 diagrams but the Manchester-Liverpool via Chat Moss semi-fast going to TPE will free up 3 units.

That'll mean 27 units out of 32 in daily use.

Do we know whether the Stalybridge/Man Vic-Blackpool service will continue or will it merge into one of the Hazel Grove services? What's more, do we know for sure whether the second Stockport-Bolton service will also originate from Hazel Grove, or could it originate from Crewe or Stoke?

 

[northwichcat]

Do we know whether the Stalybridge/Man Vic-Blackpool service will continue or will it merge into one of the Hazel Grove services? What's more, do we know for sure whether the second Stockport-Bolton service will also originate from Hazel Grove, or could it originate from Crewe or Stoke?

We do know for certain that there will have to be direct services from Salford Central to Stalybridge.

Bolton does have to have direct services to Stockport and if 319s are used on them it would be logical to send them to Hazel Grove where slow acceleration concerns are unlikely to be an issue, unlike with Stoke and possibly Crewe. Running both services to Hazel Grove would also allow a clock face service.

I just checked and 2tph between Stockport and Bolton is only required from December 2019 so that will probably allow some EMUs to be available for Blackpool-Airport services ahead of the new CAF trains arriving.

 

[Philip]

We do know for certain that there will have to be direct services from Salford Central to Stalybridge.

Bolton does have to have direct services to Stockport and if 319s are used on them it would be logical to send them to Hazel Grove where slow acceleration concerns are unlikely to be an issue, unlike with Stoke and possibly Crewe. Running both services to Hazel Grove would also allow a clock face service.

I just checked and 2tph between Stockport and Bolton is only required from December 2019 so that will probably allow some EMUs to be available for Blackpool-Airport services ahead of the new CAF trains arriving.

The Wigan shuttles will probably serve Stalybridge and you also have to factor in EMUs for these services too, once the missing bits are electrified.

The acceleration point about 319s is logical, but has it been confirmed that the Stockport-Bolton services will have 319s? Perhaps these services will make use of the 4-car 331s too? Also, don't forget the Liverpool stopper - this too will need a few 319 or 331 diagrams.

 

[northwichcat]

The Wigan shuttles will probably serve Stalybridge and you also have to factor in EMUs for these services too, once the missing bits are electrified.

The acceleration point about 319s is logical, but has it been confirmed that the Stockport-Bolton services will have 319s? Perhaps these services will make use of the 4-car 331s too? Also, don't forget the Liverpool stopper - this too will need a few 319 or 331 diagrams.

Do you mean the Liverpool-Earlestown-Airport all stops service? That will be the existing Liverpool-Victoria service diverted and joined up with the Piccadilly-Airport stopper (both operated by 319s) so no additional EMUs required.

3 of the new 4 car EMUs have been confirmed as being for Glossop/Hadfield (in the original franchise announcement) that only leaves 9 for other services (or 7/8 after maintenance/spares) which wouldn't be enough for Hazel Grove-Preston and Hazel Grove-Bolton and an alternative 'South Manchester' destination would require more units not less.

At peak times the requirement is 2tph to Stalybridge with one of them continuing to Huddersfield. At off-peak times the requirement is 2tph to Stalybridge. Therefore they'll only be 1 electric service to Staybridge per hour at peak times (until 2022) and an off-peak shuttle can be covered using units that will be used for peak time extras on other lines, if it doesn't finish up as DMU all day (due to being part of the same diagram that runs through to Huddersfield at peak times.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There'll be no locals on the Standedge/Dewsbury routes terminating at Huddersfield, at least until the wires are up between Stalybridge and Leeds.

 

[northwichcat]

There'll be no locals on the Standedge/Dewsbury routes terminating at Huddersfield, at least until the wires are up between Stalybridge and Leeds.

The Northern franchise agreement includes Manchester-Huddersfield services at peak times:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/501847/arn-tsr-schedule-3-tsr2-weekdays.pdf

So where are they going to go after Huddersfield if they won't terminate there?

 

[50032]

Looking at 319 diagrams:
Extending Liverpool-Preston services to Blackpool will need at least 1 extra diagram
Hazel Grove to Preston will need 4 diagrams
The new additional Hazel Grove to Bolton service will need 3 diagrams
Stalybridge to Blackpool will need 5 diagrams
That's 13 new diagrams

I'm reliably informed that 319's will go on Hadfield/Glossop services from December 2017 (until the CAF units arrive), four units was I think what was mooted.

Currently there's 16 diagrams and 20 units but one of the spare 319s is apparently going to be used on a peak time Hazel Grove extra soon

I think the additional peak time Hazel Grove, from May 2016, will be a 323.

 

[Philip]

I can't see how squeezing in an extra train between Stalybridge and Huddersfield at either peak or off peak times would be feasible. The capacity on the route will be stretched as it is. I suspect all services stopping at Ashton will terminate at Stalybridge. Huddersfield will have six trains per hour from Manchester in the peak hours, most formed of either 5 or 6 coaches - that is more than enough and it would be farcical to try and squeeze anything extra into an already crowded route.

I think a good uniform service pattern for cross-Manchester local services would be:

2 x Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton
1 x Kirkby to Stalybridge via Atherton
2 x Southport to Rochdale via Atherton (one continuing to Leeds as we know, the other to Blackburn via Todmorden)
1 x Wigan to Rochdale via Atherton
2 x Blackburn to Rochdale via Bolton (one coming from Clitheroe)
1 x Hazel Grove to Blackpool via Bolton (all stops)
1 x Stockport to Preston via Bolton (semi-fast, origin up for debate)

 

[northwichcat]

I can't see how squeezing in an extra train between Stalybridge and Huddersfield at either peak or off peak times would be feasible. The capacity on the route will be stretched as it is. I suspect all services stopping at Ashton will terminate at Stalybridge. Huddersfield will have six trains per hour from Manchester in the peak hours, most formed of either 5 or 6 coaches - that is more than enough and it would be farcical to try and squeeze anything extra into an already crowded route.

DfT will have to revise the franchise agreements if that is to be the case. If you look at the franchise specification it doesn't require the additional Northern services to call at all stations and it also allows the gap between services (Northern and TPE) to be up to 45 minutes.

The longer TPE services might be why the Northern stoppers are needed. A peak time 6 car service to Hull might have to skip out stations it would call at between the peaks due to short platforms.

 

[Rail Bus]

What is to be the Stopping pattern for these two TPE semi fasts?

 

[northwichcat]

What is to be the Stopping pattern for these two TPE semi fasts?

Both will call at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Batley and Dewsbury. One will usually call at Greenfield and Marsden, the other will usually call at Mossley and Slaithwaite. I'm not sure if the stopping pattern for other stops east of Huddersfield has been decided.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Both will call at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Batley and Dewsbury. One will usually call at Greenfield and Marsden, the other will usually call at Mossley and Slaithwaite. I'm not sure if the stopping pattern for other stops east of Huddersfield has been decided.

I'd have thought additionally that one will serve Mirfield (probably the Hull) with the Leeds terminator calling at Deighton and Ravensthorpe. Stops between Mirfield and Leeds will depend on the stopping pattern of the Northern 170 service between Leeds and Southport via Dewsbury and Brighouse though.

 

[clagmonster]

The longer TPE services might be why the Northern stoppers are needed. A peak time 6 car service to Hull might have to skip out stations it would call at between the peaks due to short platforms.

I believe a mod has been carried out to the 185s to allow the doors on the front 4 coaches to be released, rather than unit deselct as previous. Would the platforms at the intermediate shacks be long enough for 4 coaches? Of course, I suppose it is possible that there will be lengthening.