Class 185 future

[Ships]

It would be a really good idea but yes, a 6 car 185 doesn't fit in South Parkway. At least headig in to Liverpool the doors on the back car heading in to Liverpool are locked. The guard comes around and warns people, or at least should do. Never got a 6 car set out of Lime Street to South Parkway but it must be the same.

It is still a very good station though apart from having only 3 superloo's for all the people who pass through. If you live in the area it is an excellent transport hub for entering or leaving Liverpool city centre. Could do with a much bigger car park but there isn't anywhere to put it.

Just as an Edit I don't think a 6 car 185 fits in Warrington Central either. I think small extensions have been built in case emergency evacuation is needed. Both stations are hemmed in by bridges and junctions.

Warrington central could easily be extended to the west.

 

[fowler9]

Warrington central could easily be extended to the west.

Easily extended over a bridge? In that case so can Liverpool South Parkway. I'm not sure how much it would cost to close off the major roads involved while new bridges are built or who would pay for them.

 

[185143]

I think TPE and Northern should merge and all the trains work as a common pool between both sets of routes.

So you WANT 142s on Manchester-Scotland then??

 

[fowler9]

So you WANT 142s on Manchester-Scotland then??

To be fair that is what would happen. Athough some on here would say it is better than the service being cancelled. They are partially right.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So you WANT 142s on Manchester-Scotland then??

I'd love to see that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just a point that has occurred to me. If the 10 of the Class 350/4 units are brought in to run the services to Scotland which will release the Class 185 units currently running on that route, how many of those released units will be required to run the fifth and new cross-Pennine route from Liverpool to Newcastle ?

 

[phil281]

They should go to SWT. Numerous reasons why:

1) The 159's can only run as 9 cars in the peak due to platform lengths at Waterloo as they have long carriages, using 185's means you could use 12 cars alleviating the overcrowding on these trains between Basingstoke and Waterloo.

2) The better acceleration of the 185's will make better use of the extremely tight paths on the SWML and also decrease journey times on this start - stop route west of Salisbury.

3) More doors will decrease dwell times at Woking and Clapham Jn again making better use of paths.

4) SWT has experience of Siemens products.

5) The 158's and 159's displaced can go to routes operated by unsuitable stock such as Penzance to Bristol, Cumbrian Coast etc and also strengthen services like Norwich to Liverpool which suffer from chronic overcrowding.

6) The power of the 185's will decrease journey times over the step gradients west of Salisbury

7) Journey times reduced and path utilisation between Woking and Basingstoke increased due to 100mph capability compared to 159's 90 mph limit.


I know people will moan and say decrease in comfort etc, etc but 185' are comfortable enough. Really the Waterloo to Exeter line is primarily a commuter service between Waterloo and Salisbury and a regional service west of there, very few people use the whole route. 185's are the perfect fit, the 159's will be much more use elsewhere.

 

[Phlip]

They should go to SWT. Numerous reasons why:

1) The 159's can only run as 9 cars in the peak due to platform lengths at Waterloo as they have long carriages, using 185's means you could use 12 cars alleviating the overcrowding on these trains between Basingstoke and Waterloo.

The 185s have 23 metre coaches *the same* as the 158s.

 

[phil281]

The 185s have 23 metre coaches *the same* as the 158s.

Fair enough, I thought they were the same as 450's. Still think think this is the right place for them though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Fair enough, I thought they were the same as 450's. Still think think this is the right place for them though.

The existing platforms also allow SWT to run a 10 car combination of 2.159 and 2.158. You can't do that with 185s...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They should go to SWT. Numerous reasons why...

I know people will moan and say decrease in comfort etc, etc but 185' s are comfortable enough. Really the Waterloo to Exeter line is primarily a commuter service between Waterloo and Salisbury and a regional service west of there, very few people use the whole route. 185's are the perfect fit, the 159's will be much more use elsewhere.

Heaven knows what SWT would send up North to replace the Class 185 units that you propose the use of above. As I said in an earlier posting this morning, some of the Class 185 units displaced from the Scottish routes (which incidentally were not originally in the First TPE remit) will be required to run the fifth trans-Pennine route from Liverpool to Newcastle.

 

[swt_passenger]

... As I said in an earlier posting this morning, some of the Class 185 units displaced from the Scottish routes (which incidentally were not originally in the First TPE remit) will be required to run the fifth trans-Pennine route from Liverpool to Newcastle.

But hasn't this thread now metamorphosed into discussing the situation after TPE north is fully electrified?...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But this thread has metamorphosed into discussing the situation after TPE north is fully electrified...

There are certain routes in the area of the North-West that will NOT be electrified and the Class 185 units could be used to improve the services on those routes where the Class 185 hill-climbing ability can score. Two of these non-electrified routes mentioned so far have been:-
1)...Calder Valley line services between Manchester and Leeds
2)...Manchester to Buxton services.

This means the Class 185 units can still be served by their existing local maintenance facility.

 

[phil281]

There are certain routes in the area of the North-West that will NOT be electrified and the Class 185 units could be used to improve the services on those routes where the Class 185 hill-climbing ability can score. Two of these non-electrified routes mentioned so far have been:-
1)...Calder Valley line services between Manchester and Leeds
2)...Manchester to Buxton services.

This means the Class 185 units can still be served by their existing local maintenance facility.

These are suburban lines that are better served by 150's/172's etc not 100 mph capable units that will be better utilised on long distance but high use lines, like Waterloo to Exeter. Also the routes you mention will not need 51 units. The 158's/9's displaced could strengthen regional services in the north and west freeing up 150's etc for the routes you mention which are more suited.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are certain routes in the area of the North-West that will NOT be electrified and the Class 185 units could be used to improve the services on those routes where the Class 185 hill-climbing ability can score.

I knew all that, I was just countering your specific point about the Liverpool to Newcastle 2nd service needing them in the medium term.

I don't see them becoming generally available to random uses all over the rest of the country either though - I'd agree they'll be most use in the TPE or Northern areas (which might be combined by then anyway).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These are suburban lines that are better served by 150's/172's etc not 100 mph capable units that will be better utilised on long distance but high use lines, like Waterloo to Exeter. Also the routes you mention will not need 51 units. The 158's/9's displaced could strengthen regional services in the north and west freeing up 150's etc for the routes you mention which are more suited.

Once again, I see a proposal for a "let them eat cake" scenario. A suggestion that class 150 units rather than class 185 units should be the preferred rolling stock on the two non-electrified routes that I mentioned..

Manchester to Leeds via the Calder Valley to be regarded as a suburban line..hock:

 

[Philip]

But hasn't this thread now metamorphosed into discussing the situation after TPE north is fully electrified?...

That's the basis of the thread and let's face it we're not talking lightyears away anymore, 5 years if completed on time - it's nearly 5 years since the North West electrification was announced.

Liverpool-Newcastle and Man Airport-York will be the first to go over to electric operation.

 

[phil281]

Once again, I see a proposal for a "let them eat cake" scenario. A suggestion that class 150 units rather than class 185 units should be the preferred rolling stock on the two non-electrified routes that I mentioned..

Manchester to Leeds via the Calder Valley to be regarded as a suburban line..hock:

No...It’s just where they are most suited. Just like the 455's (which are older) should be on the SWML suburban services. The 150's should be refurbished to a similar standard though.

Who uses the Calder Valley route right though? Its primary function is to bring people from Rochdale etc to Manchester and Halifax etc to Leeds.

Why use 100mph units on short distance, primarily suburban services on lines that aren't comparatively tightly pathed?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Liverpool-Newcastle and Man Airport-York will be the first to go over to electric operation.

Using 30 year old cascaded EMU ?

 

[phil281]

Using 30 year old cascaded EMU ?

No, probably using 377's or something similar that are virtually new.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool-Newcastle and Man Airport-York will be the first to go over to electric operation.

Or will it be the semi-fast Manchester-Selby service?

 

[YorkshireBear]

They will probably be all the same time!

 

[northwichcat]

They will probably be all the same time!

I'm doubtful of that simply because that would imply that say on May 12th all services are diesel and on May 13th at least some services on all 3 routes will be electric.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No what i mean is that the gradual introduction of EMUs will be across all routes not one route then the other then the other. To allow interworking.

Selby Leeds is the first stage of TPE electrification. Then Leeds York followed by Leeds Stalybridge.

 

[Philip]

Or will it be the semi-fast Manchester-Selby service?

There's no reason why that would come before EMUs on Liverpool to Newcastle as post-2016 that route will only be waiting for the Stalybridge-Leeds section to be wired which all the other routes use anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

To allow interworking.

I don't know what interworking there can be for the proposed standard pattern unless Airport-Blackpool services and Airport-York services interwork.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't know what interworking there can be for the proposed standard pattern unless Airport-Blackpool services and Airport-York services interwork.

Interworking during the phasing in of EMUs. IE North TPE interworking with not all services yet operated by EMUs. Hence why EMUs will start appearing on all lines during gradual phase in.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, probably using 377's or something similar that are virtually new.

If this is the case, then many people in the North would be euphoric to receive those units to which you refer to above rather than to have the "Sword of Damocles" scenario of the elderly class 319 units where the more cynical of northern-based forum members do not expect the "fully refurbished treatment" and more of a "refresh-only treatment"...


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, what I mean is that the gradual introduction of EMUs will be across all routes not one route, then the other, then the other to allow interworking. Selby-Leeds is the first stage of TPE electrification. then Leeds-York, followed by Leeds-Stalybridge.

Would it not be better to complete the Leeds-Stalybridge section earlier in order to facilitate direct cross-Pennine EMU services ?

Some postings seem to assume an early use of cross-Pennine EMU served routes on certain routes.

 

[Philip]

Slightly of topic but one of the Manchester-Scotland diagrams is timetabled via Bolton all day and thus booked as a 185 right up to next May. This is the 07:25 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh, 12:12 Edinburgh to Airport and 16:00 Airport to Edinburgh.

Anyone know if this will also go over to 350 traction and Wigan routeing? The 07:25 Edinburgh is there in place of the normal Blackpool service which departs around that time of the hour.

 

[Bantamzen]

Firstly to everyone mooting moving the 185's away from the Northern / TPE regional, beggar off, we get so few new trains up here we want to keep what we so get!!

Seriously though, the obvious routes for me would be:

Blackpool - Preston - Bradford - Leeds - York - Scarborough
Carlisle/Glasgow - Leeds - York/Hull/Doncaster
Manchester Airport /Piccadilly/ Vic - Bradford - Leeds - York/Scarborough (semi fast throughout)
Manchester Airport/Piccadilly - Sheffield - Doncaster - Cleethorpes

These are the kind of routes that would most certainly benefit from the climbing abilities of the 185s, as well as capacity (albeit standing) for peak routes.