Class 185 future

[SkinnyDave]

The Scottish routes are calling for Class 220/1/2 when and if available a 185 wouldn't be much more of an improvement over 180s if you ask me

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Waterloo Exeter seems a really good call. What about Severn and Solent routes too? Or other serviced in the West Country? I remember travelling on a pacer between Plymouth and Newton Abbott a couple of years ago so surely there's scope for 185s down there?

There are Pacer operated routes in the home area of the Class 185 fleet that would be improved by being replaced by Class 185 traction, before any thought is made of dispersing them elsewhere.

I note the principle of cascading seems to suggest that "up North" seems to be on the lowest rung of the ladder, so to speak, and should only be sent elderly units....yet this does not seem to apply when the "up North" Class 185 fleet are suggested being sent to other areas. Why does no-one seem as anxious to add the Class 142 Pacer fleet to their own area stocks in respected of a "reverse cascading" procedure ?

 

[SkinnyDave]

Because the Pacers should not be even on railway in this day in age.. It's 2013 and with the fares people are being asked to pay these days and then see one of these rock up is shocking.
I don't know what the next Northern franchise will look like but it has to include investment in new stock.

 

[fowler9]

Northern, the place trains go to die. Ha ha. My mate is a driver for them and is looking forward to getting Thameslinks 30 year old cast offs as a new unit to drive. I don't blame him as it is the best we can hope for. The staff do a good job.

 

[tbtc]

The Scottish routes are calling for Class 220/1/2 when and if available

Are they?

Who is doing the calling?

If you mean the Central Belt - Inverness/ Aberdeen services then why would you want a four coach narrow 125mph unit that has fewer seats than the three car 170s already running those services?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The Scottish routes are calling for Class 220/1/2 when and if available a 185 wouldn't be much more of an improvement over 180s if you ask me

But are any 220/1/2 going to become available in the next few years? Any 221's freed up from West Coast by a new order of baby Pendo's will be sent to XC to boost capacity. The 222's are more likely but would all 27 sets be required in 4, 5 and 7 car formations, if not where should the rest of the fleet be sent?

Also is there much 125 mph running north of Edinbrough/Glasgow or could line speeds be improved? If not then 100mph stock should suffice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any 221's freed up from West Coast by a new order of baby Pendo's will be sent to XC to boost capacity...

Speculation. You can't really assume that at all. XC's franchise is a financial basket case by all accounts, just because stock might become available doesn't mean DfT will allow it to be used.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It'll be interesting what happens to the XC franchise, I don't understand why it is such a basket case. It wasn't when Virgin had it, and bolting on the remnants of the Central Trains Citylink routes shouldn't have affected things that badly.

Really the 221s do need to be with XC to deal with the chronic overcrowding, but given XC won't use the extra HSTs they were given for that purpose, who knows.

 

[Haydn1971]

Just thinking aloud re Yorkshire Region, there's going to be lots very busy of non-electric lines after 2019, so once the MML & TPN are wired, what's left ? There's a strong desire to wire the Caldervale Line (an early key target for the West Yorkshire Transport Fund), there's also a strong desire in South Yorkshire to wire the north of Sheffield lines - which could be any combination of the Sheffield-Barnsley-Kirkgate-Leeds or Sheffield-Moorthorpe or Sheffield-Doncaster plus a desire to wire the Hope Valley Line. The north of Sheffield lines could be a convenient cascade for 185's in the medium term, even if some of the routes are under wires. Both West and South Yorkshire are desperate to get shut of the 14x & 150/153/156 fleets - I accept that the 185 fleet isn't that suited as a replacement for routes served by the above though.

So, what about after that ? The Penistone line is never gonna get funding for wires, so maybe battery solutions in the long term could work there or a diesel tram-train ? There's the big elephant in the room of Liverpool to Norwich - that's a prime Voyager/Meridian cascade opportunity, the Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham route is very busy in my experience, perhaps some opportunity for either 185 or more 22x diesels ?

I'm not that familiar with the NW but surely lots of easy cascades there too... I'm struggling to see northern PTE's letting the 185 fleet go to Scotland or even down south - the Rail North brand will be as strong as TfL and the DfT won't wanna mess with that karma by taking the only half decent local stock in the north away.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Are they?

Who is doing the calling?

If you mean the Central Belt - Inverness/ Aberdeen services then why would you want a four coach narrow 125mph unit that has fewer seats than the three car 170s already running those services?

Yes, it's already been stated that TS has shown an interest in 221s at very least
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Speculation. You can't really assume that at all. XC's franchise is a financial basket case by all accounts, just because stock might become available doesn't mean DfT will allow it to be used.

Out of all the franchises due for renewal over next few years this is the one I'm looking forward to seeing what the hell they do with this one.
Need to wait until 2019

 

[fowler9]

Just thinking aloud re Yorkshire Region, there's going to be lots very busy of non-electric lines after 2019, so once the MML & TPN are wired, what's left ? There's a strong desire to wire the Caldervale Line (an early key target for the West Yorkshire Transport Fund), there's also a strong desire in South Yorkshire to wire the north of Sheffield lines - which could be any combination of the Sheffield-Barnsley-Kirkgate-Leeds or Sheffield-Moorthorpe or Sheffield-Doncaster plus a desire to wire the Hope Valley Line. The north of Sheffield lines could be a convenient cascade for 185's in the medium term, even if some of the routes are under wires. Both West and South Yorkshire are desperate to get shut of the 14x & 150/153/156 fleets - I accept that the 185 fleet isn't that suited as a replacement for routes served by the above though.

So, what about after that ? The Penistone line is never gonna get funding for wires, so maybe battery solutions in the long term could work there or a diesel tram-train ? There's the big elephant in the room of Liverpool to Norwich - that's a prime Voyager/Meridian cascade opportunity, the Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham route is very busy in my experience, perhaps some opportunity for either 185 or more 22x diesels ?

I'm not that familiar with the NW but surely lots of easy cascades there too... I'm struggling to see northern PTE's letting the 185 fleet go to Scotland or even down south - the Rail North brand will be as strong as TfL and the DfT won't wanna mess with that karma by taking the only half decent local stock in the north away.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

I'm not sure Voyagers would work on the Liverpool to Norwich run for a number of reasons. Unless I am mistaken it would reduce the number of seats on already crowded trains, the dwell times would be longer and isn't the increased speed useless on most of the route? As a further one aren't they just too heavy to run at speed on parts of the route? Apologies if I am wrong on any of those.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm not that convinced that a Voyager is any worse than a 158 for dwell times. - also, aren't many if the Liverpool to Norwich services running as 2 car units. ?

 

[Class83]

220/221 wouldn't have enough seats for the Scotrail Express services, some of which run as 6 car 170s. Reforming the 222s into 5/6 carriages would work ok. Also those should be free towards the end of the decade. XC still has a lot of non-electrified lines so would be better off with the VT 221s.

 

[CJ]

I'm not that convinced that a Voyager is any worse than a 158 for dwell times. - also, aren't many if the Liverpool to Norwich services running as 2 car units. ?

Not since EMT got 4 extra 156s from Northern they haven't.

The majority of the weekday services are now 4-car between Liverpool and Nottingham, with half the train continuing to Norwich as 2-car. There are still some which are booked as 2-car throughout.

Weekends probably have more 2-car services.

 

[Donny Dave]

Hull is almost certainly to be wired. Middlesbrough is very very likely in CP6.

Current routes served which will remain not electrified Medium Term:

Scarborough, South TPE, Barrow.

Scarborough has an easy solution as regularly discussed on here. Extend Blackpool North - York service with it becoming Semi Fast Leeds-York.

That's something that myself and quite a few others on here have suggested in the past.

South TPE, well it will need some big platform extensions to take 6 cars. Although if you run it so that it is only 6 car to Doncaster you would only have to extend Meadowhall which is likely to be done alongside HS2 anyway. That will absorb some, plus also the introduction of a third Manc-Sheffield fast service.

Not really. Meadowhall, Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Cleethorpes can already accomodate a 6x185 formation. Ok, it is tight at the first 2, but they do fit. Barnetby, I'm unsure about, but I do think a 6 car 185 does fit. Can someone confirm/correct this please?

could they turn them into electric trains?

Never been on one

SWT 450/444 units are absolutely superb and I'm sure these are too

They could be converted, but it would be cheaper, and possibly quicker to order an off the shelf EMU, as you basiccaly have to strip each carriage back the bare shell and start again, plus modify the roof of the center carriage to accomodate the pan.

 

[47802]

I am slightly amused by this thread as any potential cascading of the 185's is clearly some years away even assuming the electrification scheme run to schedule, and as for the assertion that this line and that line will also be done, well that is no certainty and within what timescale.

Post electrification scheme's well I'm sure the 170's would be the first to go in favour of a standard fleet, there's clearly room for additional units on TPE routes not currently scheduled for electrification and other northern routes such as the calder valley and copy pit routes.

Maybe some will be cascaded elsewhere at some point but I don't even think its worth speculating about at this stage.

I personally hope that the TPX stay separate from northern, although it clearly makes sense for Blackpool Manchester services to be operated by Northern post electrification and instead TPX could take over Copy Pit Blackpool's and maybe also Calder Valley Semi Fasts.

 

[fowler9]

I'm not that convinced that a Voyager is any worse than a 158 for dwell times. - also, aren't many if the Liverpool to Norwich services running as 2 car units. ?

Certainly hardly any of them leave Liverpool as a 2 car unit unless there has been a failure somewhere. They go past the end of my garden by West Allerton station so I have a decent idea of what I am talking about.

 

[Bevan Price]

So, what about after that ? The Penistone line is never gonna get funding for wires, so maybe battery solutions in the long term could work there or a diesel tram-train ? There's the big elephant in the room of Liverpool to Norwich - that's a prime Voyager/Meridian cascade opportunity, the Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham route is very busy in my experience, perhaps some opportunity for either 185 or more 22x diesels ?

I'm not that familiar with the NW but surely lots of easy cascades there too... I'm struggling to see northern PTE's letting the 185 fleet go to Scotland or even down south - the Rail North brand will be as strong as TfL and the DfT won't wanna mess with that karma by taking the only half decent local stock in the north away.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

1. I think it will be many years (if ever) before battery power trains can match the daily mileage / performance of dmus.

2. The London-based DfT probably won't care about what the northern PTEs want - they will almost certainly try to do what costs them the least amount of money.

 

[WatcherZero]

I am slightly amused by this thread as any potential cascading of the 185's is clearly some years away even assuming the electrification scheme run to schedule, and as for the assertion that this line and that line will also be done, well that is no certainty and within what timescale.

I must admit im amused by people suggested reducing the length of trains, its not like we are swimming in capacity even when electrification kicks in and there wont be any new DMU's ordered outside high speed mainline units. Its far easier to lengthen platforms than it is to procure new diesel rolling stock.

 

[Philip]

Anything could happen at the end of the day...Blackpool/North TPE electrification may take a couple of years longer than expected, who knows? It's just a speculation thread.

Still think replacing 185s with 158s on South TPE would make sense though - not least because the 158s can make full use of the line speed, 185s can't. Maybe we're thinking too big as far as the 185s go? Once the Bolton line speed is upgraded perhaps it wouldn't be so daft having a small selection of 185s working say Manchester to Wigan/Southport shuttles (obviously with first class removed), or Manchester to Chester shuttles?

Another possibility is Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea if the 175s can be cascaded elsewhere. South of Shrewsbury I'm guessing a 185 would beat a 175 to Cardiff with all the stops en route, because of its better acceleration?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Penistone line is never gonna get funding for wires, so maybe battery solutions in the long term could work there or a diesel tram-train ? There's the big elephant in the room of Liverpool to Norwich - that's a prime Voyager/Meridian cascade opportunity, the Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham route is very busy in my experience, perhaps some opportunity for either 185 or more 22x diesels ?

I do wish the ideas of tram-trains on the Penistone line would die quietly :roll:!
What's really needed there (once the 185s are cascaded wherever and there's plenty of sprinters about) is an extra loop for 2tph. Once that's done, wires might become more feasible, particularly to avoid needing a diesel micro-fleet once everything else gets knitted!

To get back on topic though, the 185s are awkward to re-deploy largely for the same reasons they've not been entirely successful on their current duties.
Technically, they're brilliant units: fast, powerful and fairly smooth. But, they've always been far too small capacity-wise and were a drop in capacity compared to the 158s they replaced. For this reason, I'm not sure they'd be suitable for Liverpool-Norwich.

It's a long shot (and as much as I don't want to send any of our nicer trains South!) but perhaps Chiltern would be an ideal place for the 185s. They're 100mph units with a lot of power and quick acceleration, and would allow an internal cascade that would release 165s for GW, and 172s for LM or even Northern. They'd need coupler mods, presumably even if only for emergencies and I'm not sure if they can be fitted with tripcocks for Aylesbury via Amersham, although the 168s are. Staff would need to be trained but that's the case wherever they go. Better they get to stretch their legs a bit rather than plodding up and down the Buxton line!

 

[47802]

Anything could happen at the end of the day...Blackpool/North TPE electrification may take a couple of years longer than expected, who knows? It's just a speculation thread.

Still think replacing 185s with 158s on South TPE would make sense though - not least because the 158s can make full use of the line speed, 185s can't. Maybe we're thinking too big as far as the 185s go? Once the Bolton line speed is upgraded perhaps it wouldn't be so daft having a small selection of 185s working say Manchester to Wigan/Southport shuttles (obviously with first class removed), or Manchester to Chester shuttles?

Another possibility is Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea if the 175s can be cascaded elsewhere. South of Shrewsbury I'm guessing a 185 would beat a 175 to Cardiff with all the stops en route, because of its better acceleration?

I see no reason for replacing 185's with 158's on the South TPE, I suspect the slower line speed is compensated for by the better acceleration and reduced dwell times of the 185's. I spent a short period commuting on that route and the station stops on the 158's took ages due to people trying to get on and off an absolutely rammed train at peak times. Of course that was before they introduced 4 cars on EMT services so it might be slightly better now. I also don't think that replacing a currently 7 year old train with a 23 year old train with dodgy air con will go down well with the customer.

What happens to the 185's in the long term may well be dependent, on what happens to virgin 221's and EMT 222's although isn't there already suggestions that the Midland Electrification might get put back!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Still think replacing 185s with 158s on South TPE would make sense though - not least because the 158s can make full use of the line speed, 185s can't.

On which particular sections on the South TPE lines did your quote refer to regarding the matter of the line speed ?

 

[D6975]

On which particular sections on the South TPE lines did your quote refer to regarding the matter of the line speed ?

Yes, quite.

As far as I am aware the only place where 185s are restricted more than 158s is in the Selby area due to weight issues. That on the North TP route and is why most Hull TP services are 170s.

 

[Tobbes]

To get back on topic though, the 185s are awkward to re-deploy largely for the same reasons they've not been entirely successful on their current duties.
Technically, they're brilliant units: fast, powerful and fairly smooth. But, they've always been far too small capacity-wise and were a drop in capacity compared to the 158s they replaced. For this reason, I'm not sure they'd be suitable for Liverpool-Norwich.

As part of the deployment, I'm not clear on why they couldn't be extended by inserting a new build Desiro trailer to make them four car - reducing the (expensive) power to weight ratio, too. As 4 or 5 car sets (3 powered), they would seem useful in Scotland (WHL, HML, FNLs).

Tobbes

 

[Haydn1971]

As part of the deployment, I'm not clear on why they couldn't be extended by inserting a new build Desiro trailer to make them four car - reducing the (expensive) power to weight ratio, too. As 4 or 5 car sets (3 powered), they would seem useful in Scotland (WHL, HML, FNLs).

Yeah, I'm liking that idea - is there any technical reason why it couldn't be done ? Such as the body design out of spec with current standards ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Another possibility is Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea if the 175s can be cascaded elsewhere. South of Shrewsbury I'm guessing a 185 would beat a 175 to Cardiff with all the stops en route, because of its better acceleration?

185s would not gain anything over 175s on this route.
There are "Sprinter" differential speed limits between Nantwich and Onibury which 175s can use but 185s can't.
The 175s do quite well over Llanvihangel summit and it's pretty flat on the rest of the Marches.
Although a first class section would be a useful upgrade, the standard accommodation is reduced and the 1/3 2/3 doors don't help.
Bristol-Portsmouth might be a suitable route, but they are likely to go 16x.
They would also be good for XC services currently run by 2-car 170s (Cardiff-Nottingham, Birmingham-Stansted).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

185s would not gain anything over 175s on this route.

A modicum of first class accommodation perhaps ?

Another point to bear in mind is that some Class 175 sets are only of a 2-car formation at times.

 

[47802]

To get back on topic though, the 185s are awkward to re-deploy largely for the same reasons they've not been entirely successful on their current duties.
Technically, they're brilliant units: fast, powerful and fairly smooth. But, they've always been far too small capacity-wise and were a drop in capacity compared to the 158s they replaced. For this reason, I'm not sure they'd be suitable for Liverpool-Norwich.

I don't see a problem with using them on Liverpool Norwich, aside from any platform issues with 6 car workings, you could either leave the first class in and offer a better product or take it out and gain a significant standard class capacity increase over a 2 car 158.

 

[Donny Dave]

185s would not gain anything over 175s on this route.
There are "Sprinter" differential speed limits between Nantwich and Onibury which 175s can use but 185s can't.
The 175s do quite well over Llanvihangel summit and it's pretty flat on the rest of the Marches.
Although a first class section would be a useful upgrade, the standard accommodation is reduced and the 1/3 2/3 doors don't help.
Bristol-Portsmouth might be a suitable route, but they are likely to go 16x.
They would also be good for XC services currently run by 2-car 170s (Cardiff-Nottingham, Birmingham-Stansted).

There's SP differentials over the Hope Valley as well, where 158s and 170s can go 15/20mph faster, but a 185 is still the wuickest between Sheffield and Stockport.