Class 185 future

[tbtc]

Assuming no RA issues, the Highland Main Line would be ideal for the 185's

They'd be good for it, mechanically, but that'd mean a fairly small subfleet north of the border (unless they also replace 170s on all remaining longer distance routes like Edinburgh/ Glasgow to Aberdeen).

I stick by my usual answers - Buxton, Calder Valley, Blackpool to Scarborough... (but mainly on TPE South)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed. TPE have discussed how they can more closely match capacity to demand on the Scotland route, using 3, 4, 6 or 8 coach trains.

Before euphoria overwhelms all of us "in the North", there are only 10 of the Class 350/4 units earmarked for the First TPE route on the specific Scotland service that was only a very late "add-on" to the First TPE franchise for reasons were are all aware of.

There have been numerous postings about the Class 319 units that are of "a certain age" that are supposed to be sent "up North" on what seems to be a most fluid timescale and an even more mysterious "refurbishment" programme that seems to range from one extreme to the other in forum members minds.

Being the cynic that I am, I can see the powers-that-be saying "Let all of those up in the North have the refurbishment that will give them rolling stock that they are used to"...then all the existing Class 319 seating will be removed and replaced by the 3+2 bus seats in the style of the Class 142 Pacer fleet....hock:

 

[DXMachina]

In the more distant future and subject to further displacement from TPE diesel services by EMUs, they could be useful on Poole & Weymouth services from London during AC re-electrification as they have the performance needed for long distance and are familiar due to being Desiro units

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I stick by my usual answers - Buxton, Calder Valley, Blackpool to Scarborough... (but mainly on TPE South)

Good thinking about the Buxton service. Has there ever been any proposals for Liverpool to Cleethorpes using the South TPE route ?

 

[HSTEd]

In the more distant future and subject to further displacement from TPE diesel services by EMUs, they could be useful on Poole & Weymouth services from London during AC re-electrification as they have the performance needed for long distance and are familiar due to being Desiro units

Presumably there will be no significant period of diesel running as they can do almost all the work for AC electrification while the DC system is still in operation, as third rail doesn't really effect electrification clearances.

 

[David Barrett]

Good thinking about the Buxton service. Has there ever been any proposals for Liverpool to Cleethorpes using the South TPE route ?

Yes, in the Jacob's Report, probably overtaken by events now or just destined to a life in the filing cabinet of dust.http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rvfm-jacobs-franchising-march2011.pdf

 

[fowler9]

I found it interesting people suggesting 185's for various branch lines, aren't they a bit long and a bit heavy for them. I really don't know and am just guessing. I would have thought Buxton is not do able for starters given other units that can't do the run.Who knows. (Well,I'm sure someone does).

Again just to be awkward I really don't like them for anything other than a short run. One carriage almost wasted with a pointless first class section, a tiny standard class section and the worlds biggest dissabled access section (Which can't be a bad thing except when people with bad eyesight get forced to sit on a drop down seat as per a previous thread)

 

[tbtc]

I found it interesting people suggesting 185's for various branch lines, aren't they a bit long and a bit heavy for them. I really don't know and am just guessing. I would have thought Buxton is not do able for starters given other units that can't do the run.Who knows. (Well,I'm sure someone does).

Again just to be awkward I really don't like them for anything other than a short run. One carriage almost wasted with a pointless first class section, a tiny standard class section and the worlds biggest dissabled access section (Which can't be a bad thing except when people with bad eyesight get forced to sit on a drop down seat as per a previous thread)

Pacers and 153s can't be trusted with the climb up to Buxton. If there's any unit that you should be able to trust with the gradient, its the 185s.

 

[David Barrett]

I found it interesting people suggesting 185's for various branch lines, aren't they a bit long and a bit heavy for them. I really don't know and am just guessing. I would have thought Buxton is not do able for starters given other units that can't do the run.Who knows. (Well,I'm sure someone does).

Again just to be awkward I really don't like them for anything other than a short run. One carriage almost wasted with a pointless first class section, a tiny standard class section and the worlds biggest dissabled access section (Which can't be a bad thing except when people with bad eyesight get forced to sit on a drop down seat as per a previous thread)

I suppose that it's a matter of individuality as to whether one likes or dislikes, I actually don't mind them at all. Like yourself though I figure that a good number of routes where they could, on the face of things, render an improvement over what is currently in use would be ruled out because of weight/route availibility issues.

 

[Nym]

This discussion has been had many many times before...

If NT and TPE where to merge later on down the line to have "Northern CityLink" or keep a seperate brand such as TPE etc.

The routes we (I) came up with last time are;

South TPE to operate through over the CLC lines. Liverpool L St to Cleethorpes (12 units initially with no strengthening, 20 with core units added between Doncaster and Livepool, potentially portion working to include Selby or Hull via Goole from Doncaster)
If working to/from Hull via Goole and Cleethorpes (Providing a significanly higher quality service to Hull for links to London at Doncaster and at Sheffeild) this would primeraly provide a convenient place for the 2nd unit to go, other options would be Selby, that isn't too bad, or Adwick (adds extra mainline crossings) if one unit can cross the mainline as current timetable, one could split the service North/East of Doncaster at Hatfeild & Stainforth.

Buxton to provide 2tph peak and 1tph off peak, fast to Hazel Grove calling Stockport Only, again, potential portion working with South TPE, or used to provide 2tph TPE between SPT and MAN then onwards to Lime Street but more dowbtful as this would gain the best potential pathing terminating at Piccadilly (also better peak response as this would be the most peakey route), 5 - 10 Units

Calder Valley and/or Leeds - Settle - Carlisle (Remaining units, interworking with nicely refurbished 158 units)

 

[fowler9]

Pacers and 153s can't be trusted with the climb up to Buxton. If there's any unit that you should be able to trust with the gradient, its the 185s.

I was under the impression that the 142's and 153's just don't fit through the various tunnels etc. on the route which is why the 185 's wouldn't in my opinion. Nothing to do with the power. I would be interested to hear from someone who knows about this.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This discussion has been had many many times before...

If NT and TPE where to merge later on down the line to have "Northern CityLink" or keep a seperate brand such as TPE etc.

The routes we (I) came up with last time are;

South TPE to operate through over the CLC lines. Liverpool L St to Cleethorpes (12 units initially with no strengthening, 20 with core units added between Doncaster and Livepool, potentially portion working to include Selby or Hull via Goole from Doncaster)
If working to/from Hull via Goole and Cleethorpes (Providing a significanly higher quality service to Hull for links to London at Doncaster and at Sheffeild) this would primeraly provide a convenient place for the 2nd unit to go, other options would be Selby, that isn't too bad, or Adwick (adds extra mainline crossings) if one unit can cross the mainline as current timetable, one could split the service North/East of Doncaster at Hatfeild & Stainforth.

Buxton to provide 2tph peak and 1tph off peak, fast to Hazel Grove calling Stockport Only, again, potential portion working with South TPE, or used to provide 2tph TPE between SPT and MAN then onwards to Lime Street but more dowbtful as this would gain the best potential pathing terminating at Piccadilly (also better peak response as this would be the most peakey route), 5 - 10 Units

Calder Valley and/or Leeds - Settle - Carlisle (Remaining units, interworking with nicely refurbished 158 units)

I agree quite well with this. You use all the units and also provide some capacity upgrades. Keep units working within the existing depots too. Would add Scaborough - BPN North too.

Calder Valley is hard as is 3 cars enough at peak and is 6 cars too long for platforms?

 

[fowler9]

I agree quite well with this. You use all the units and also provide some capacity upgrades. Keep units working within the existing depots too. Would add Scaborough - BPN North too.

Calder Valley is hard as is 3 cars enough at peak and is 6 cars too long for platforms?

As I've already said 3 car 185's aren't long enough for services out of Liverpool. 6 car 185's are too long for Liverpool South Parkway and Warrington Central amongst others.

Just apologising in my Edit Yorkshire Bear. I'm sure this isn't the comment I was replying to! Can't find the right one now.

 

[Nym]

I agree quite well with this. You use all the units and also provide some capacity upgrades. Keep units working within the existing depots too. Would add Scaborough - BPN North too.

Calder Valley is hard as is 3 cars enough at peak and is 6 cars too long for platforms?

Problem with Scarbough to Blackpool N aparently is the linespeed issues around Copy Pit (as I keep being told) but this could easily be interchanges to use them here rather than one of the other routes, I've primeraly kept it running out of Ardwick Depot, York Depot and Cleethorpes Stabling though. But 10 units could run Scarbrough - Blackpool North with a 2nd tph shuttling between Scarbrough and York.

This and the S&C may be one of the better ways to go as both could justify 1st class accomadation, the calder valley does better on 1st class requirement than BPN-YRK though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I've already said 3 car 185's aren't long enough for services out of Liverpool. 6 car 185's are too long for Liverpool South Parkway and Warrington Central amongst others.

Just apologising in my Edit Yorkshire Bear. I'm sure this isn't the comment I was replying to! Can't find the right one now.

Remember that as of Northern Triangle, the CLC will no longer be the main route between Liverpool and Manchester, this will move to the Chat Moss Route. Also, if there where 6 car 185s these would only be calling at principal stations.

Finally, 185s could be fitted with an SDO system similar to that fitted to the 444/450 fleet.

 

[fowler9]

Problem with Scarbough to Blackpool N aparently is the linespeed issues around Copy Pit (as I keep being told) but this could easily be interchanges to use them here rather than one of the other routes, I've primeraly kept it running out of Ardwick Depot, York Depot and Cleethorpes Stabling though. But 10 units could run Scarbrough - Blackpool North with a 2nd tph shuttling between Scarbrough and York.

This and the S&C may be one of the better ways to go as both could justify 1st class accomadation, the calder valley does better on 1st class requirement than BPN-YRK though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Remember that as of Northern Triangle, the CLC will no longer be the main route between Liverpool and Manchester, this will move to the Chat Moss Route. Also, if there where 6 car 185s these would only be calling at principal stations.

Finally, 185s could be fitted with an SDO system similar to that fitted to the 444/450 fleet.

I take on board what you are staying but where the 185's stop now are almost all major stations. Liverpool South Parkway is a major station for more than just Liverpool Airport and gets a lot of passengers. Warrington Central is in the biggest town in Cheshire (Bigger than Chester) which is very wealthy and has a lot of growing industry. Birchwood is possibly a bit more ropy but still sees a good number of passengers and I think is operated by First TPE. The trains on the Chat Moss route won't be calling anywhere because they don't go through anywhere worth calling at in all honesty.

 

[WatcherZero]

Does this mean 185s will still be making the occasional trip to Scotland up to 2018, when different EMUs arrive for the wired North TPE?

As it stands the plan is that during mon-thu the busiest high peak service (for capacity and there arent enough 350's) and multiple services on friday and sundays (to cater for higher weekend travelers and allow doubled up 350's) will be formed of paired 185's. However they wont be needed most of the week and even at the weekend they wont need the whole fleet once north TPE is electrified.

Of course when a suitable replacement to the 350's in enough quantity could be found they could stop running diesels under the wires.

 

[185]

185's have the equivalent of an SDO system. The 'UDB' is able to lock everything rearward of the UDB switch, and if the platform is 4-5 cars long, then the guard in the UDB'd portion can still use the GOP (Guards Panel) in the 5th coach - meaning the front 3 cars open, and an extra door in the 5th coach opens with the guard at it.

The one concern I have with 185s is that they have proven to be a particularly heavy train. Branch lines with elderly infrastructure suffer with heavy trains - the Leven Viaduct and the line just beyond Scunthorpe are good examples of where 185s (probably) damaged the line.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That is the big concern going forward from NR and the TOCs. the S&C is ideal due to its nature as a freight route but as Nym said the Copy pit may not be.

 

[tbtc]

That is the big concern going forward from NR and the TOCs. the S&C is ideal due to its nature as a freight route but as Nym said the Copy pit may not be.

Certainly no 100mph running on the S&C though - no need for "commuter" doors on the S&C either (given the lack of trade at intermediate stations)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Certainly no 100mph running on the S&C though - no need for "commuter" doors on the S&C either (given the lack of trade at intermediate stations)

Yes but i think they are more suited to that than calder valley locals :/

I think there is nowhere perfect for them in an ideal world they would not have been ordered as they are.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes but i think they are more suited to that than calder valley locals :/

But would there be heavier loadings on the Calder Valley line to Leeds ?

 

[Nym]

Certainly no 100mph running on the S&C though - no need for "commuter" doors on the S&C either (given the lack of trade at intermediate stations)

S&C it would more be for the quality of rolling stock and nice windows...

But I beleive the primary routes should be out of Manchester to Buxton and S Transpennine.

Additionals could be Scarbrough - York, or extending a Calder Valley to Scarbrough via York rather than Selby and running this using 185s including a shuttle to Selby. (Principal stations only of course).

York - Middlesbrough shuttles may be a reasonable home, but dealing with growth in Manchester and Leeds should be a priority. Liverpool next if the CLC can take the lengths.

 

[tbtc]

S&C it would more be for the quality of rolling stock and nice windows...

Stick some better seats in a Pacer - nice big windows

But seriously, rather than go down the "observation car" gimmick route, there's an argument for some 75mph DMUs with longer distance interiors for routes like the West Highland/ Far North/ S&C where you're never going to need 100mph stock but you can justify a more comfortable/ long distance spec internally.

 

[Haydn1971]

185's to Scotland ???

They can take our Pacers, built they nay havin our Desiros !!!

To add to above - word on the street is that Northern and TPE are merging in 2016 into a single Rail North brand, but it remains unclear as to how that will be let, but I've heard that it could be let over multiple firms under the single brand - a bit like bus services under TfL

 

[BantamMenace]

I'd make them two and four car sets. Fours for Harrogate loop, Scarborough shuttles, Calder valley and b'pool to scarbs with the two cars doing leeds - Lancaster, Cumbrian Coast and Newcastle-Carlisle. Maybe save some in 3-car format for integrating Nottingham-Leeds and S&C into a single Notts-Carlisle

 

[Nym]

I'd make them two and four car sets. Fours for Harrogate loop, Scarborough shuttles, Calder valley and b'pool to scarbs with the two cars doing leeds - Lancaster, Cumbrian Coast and Newcastle-Carlisle. Maybe save some in 3-car format for integrating Nottingham-Leeds and S&C into a single Notts-Carlisle

Ummm, the two car ones would have roughly the same amount of seats as a 153...(!)

 

[Bevan Price]

I found it interesting people suggesting 185's for various branch lines, aren't they a bit long and a bit heavy for them. I really don't know and am just guessing. I would have thought Buxton is not do able for starters given other units that can't do the run.Who knows. (Well,I'm sure someone does).

If you were a TOC manager concerned about economies, and fuel consumption / costs, would you want to use 700+ hp per coach with 100mph capability on Buxton or Calder Valley lines. when units with about 350hp per coach can keep time and consume a lot less fuel (and also have more seats per coach) ?

If/when any 185s become spare from TPE routes (circa 2019 or later), they are most likely to go to locations where their high speed & hill climbing abilities are useful.

Only a guess, and considering that some Voyagers & Meridians may also be looking for new homes, but I see some of the following as being just possibities:

1. Replace 159s on Waterloo - Exeter. Displaced 159s used as part of new cascades to replace more Pacers.
2. Replace 170s on Glasgow / Edinburgh - Inverness Surplus 170s start to displace some Scottish 156s & 158s.

 

[BantamMenace]

Ummm, the two car ones would have roughly the same amount of seats as a 153...(!)

is there need for increased capacity on the routes i mentioned using the 2-cars? Operate them in multiple where needed

 

[YorkshireBear]

is there need for increased capacity on the routes i mentioned using the 2-cars? Operate them in multiple where needed

Newcastle Carlisle can get quite toasty.

I think we should be increasing capacity wherever possible, a 2 car 185 would be quite a reduction on some current two car units. Also you need to keep the fleet all interchangeable to maintain operational efficiency, having a few 2 car units only allowed on certain services makes planning more difficult. The savings in efficiency beat the cost of an extra car on the irregular routes.

Also i think a 185 might be very much overkill in terms of power and more importantly weight on the Carnforth Lancaster and Cumbrian coast section. Those lines are not designed for constant weight of the 185s.

Many of us on here find what to do with the DMUs in the North of England fascinating and it is very complex and i sense there will never be e perfect solution.

 

[tadhatter]

If you were a TOC manager concerned about economies, and fuel consumption / costs, would you want to use 700+ hp per coach with 100mph capability on Buxton or Calder Valley lines. when units with about 350hp per coach can keep time and consume a lot less fuel (and also have more seats per coach) ?

If/when any 185s become spare from TPE routes (circa 2019 or later), they are most likely to go to locations where their high speed & hill climbing abilities are useful.

Only a guess, and considering that some Voyagers & Meridians may also be looking for new homes, but I see some of the following as being just possibities:

1. Replace 159s on Waterloo - Exeter. Displaced 159s used as part of new cascades to replace more Pacers.
2. Replace 170s on Glasgow / Edinburgh - Inverness Surplus 170s start to displace some Scottish 156s & 158s.

Waterloo Exeter seems a really good call. What about Severn and Solent routes too? Or other serviced in the West Country? I remember travelling on a pacer between Plymouth and Newton Abbott a couple of years ago so surely there's scope for 185s down there?