Class 185 future replacements

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What about northern Scotland, would there be enough passengers?

Compare the passenger loadings on the fleet used there at present with the passenger capacity of the 3-car Class 185. Regarding traction, the Class 185sets are certainly powerful enough to handle the lines in the North of Scotland.

 

[tbtc]

I can see Manchester Airport-Newcastle and a truncated Liverpool-York service becoming EMU services but for North TPE to become 100% EMUs it would require routes used for diversions to also be electrified such as Calder Vale and both Liverpool-Manchester lines.

Not necessarily.

When the ECML was electrified they didn't do Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster or Northallerton - Hartlepool - Newcastle. Same goes with the WCML being electrified without doing all the diversionary lines.

It'd be nice if Calder Vale etc were wired too, but certainly not a requirement.

 

[WatcherZero]

Compare the passenger loadings on the fleet used there at present with the passenger capacity of the 3-car Class 185. Regarding traction, the Class 185sets are certainly powerful enough to handle the lines in the North of Scotland.

Well I dont really know which was why I asked, but skimming the Scotland RUS now it seems to suggest their lightly loaded mainly due to low frequency service around Aberdeen and if a higher service was provided loadings would increase. It also suggest 6 car units are needed in the Highlands.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not necessarily.

When the ECML was electrified they didn't do Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster or Northallerton - Hartlepool - Newcastle. Same goes with the WCML being electrified without doing all the diversionary lines.

It'd be nice if Calder Vale etc were wired too, but certainly not a requirement.

yeah agree and in addition to that. i reckon TPE will need to retain some 185's anyway so they can just do the night services (which are usually re routed at some point along route)

 

[northwichcat]

Not necessarily.

When the ECML was electrified they didn't do Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster or Northallerton - Hartlepool - Newcastle. Same goes with the WCML being electrified without doing all the diversionary lines.

You wouldn't get away with not electrifying any diversionary lines on North TPE though and TPE losing all the 185s. Diversions are much more common on North TPE than either the WCML and ECML due to more overnight services and using Thunderbirds or the like on regional EMUs wouldn't be as economically viable as using them on Pendolinos.

 

[Jonny]

Replacement stock should be 6 car minimum.

The 185s were built to be good at hill climbing so probably the best routes for them to be cascaded on to would be either the local Pennine routes e.g. Calder Vale, Buxton line etc. or/and Welsh routes that would involve a lot of climbing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


175s were replaced on North West routes around 5-6 years after introduction and how long did 170s last on MML?

Six car minimum sounds like a good idea, but they will soon be the most numerous stopping service at Chester-le-Street (about 4 1/2 "C3" cars long) and the platforms they usually get put into at Newcastle (9 and 10) are even shorter.

 

[ainsworth74]

Six car minimum sounds like a good idea, but they will soon be the most numerous stopping service at Chester-le-Street (about 4 1/2 "C3" cars long) and the platforms they usually get put into at Newcastle (9 and 10) are even shorter.

That's why I was thinking 4 car units, you could do some portion working (i.e with half a train going to one destination and the other to a different one with splitting/joining at York) or simply run an 8-car train between Manchester and York and have the front half then carry on to the final destination whilst the rear half awaits the arrival of another train back to Manchester. A shorter unit would add flexibility into diagramming, increase capacity where it is needed most whilst at the same time avoiding platform length issues at the extremities of the TPE network.

 

[northwichcat]

Six car minimum sounds like a good idea, but they will soon be the most numerous stopping service at Chester-le-Street (about 4 1/2 "C3" cars long) and the platforms they usually get put into at Newcastle (9 and 10) are even shorter.

A lot of new trains have SDO and sometimes a train can be longer than the platform and open all passenger doors depending on the type of train and signal positions.

I imagine switching platforms at Newcastle shouldn't be too big an issue.

There would also be the option of moving stations like Chester-le-Street, Garforth, South Milford and Brough off TPE services and those stations having more local services instead. (I'm not sure I should mention Brough though after a certain John Prescott blocked a previous move to take it off the Manchester-Hull route.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's why I was thinking 4 car units, you could do some portion working (i.e with half a train going to one destination and the other to a different one with splitting/joining at York) or simply run an 8-car train between Manchester and York and have the front half then carry on to the final destination whilst the rear half awaits the arrival of another train back to Manchester. A shorter unit would add flexibility into diagramming, increase capacity where it is needed most whilst at the same time avoiding platform length issues at the extremities of the TPE network.

First TPE do this on some services now with two Class 185 sets. For an example, the 0930 service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Windermere. The first set is for Blackpool and the second set is for Windermere. The units split at Preston.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well i wouldnt be sorry to see the back of them on WCML runs but if a good chunk of the fleat were to be allocated to edinburgh/glasgow to aberdeen/inverness, aberdeen to inverness and the north highland runs i'd be delighted!

Turbostars/158s to Northern?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When I first posted this thread, I made the assumption that it was in the public domain about the Freedom of Information response by the DfT to a question about "The replacement of diesel vehicles by electric vehicles on the Northern and TransPennine Express franchaises, following the completion of electrification work in the North West", that was made in March this year. I was hoping to find out from forum members, what type of electric units would be deemed as suitable replacements, once this electrification occurred.

The response given stated that the DfT estimated that 116 existing diesel vehicles would be replaced by electric vehicles and that their estimate was that 40 of these vehicles would come from the TransPennine franchaise and that the remaining 76 vehicles would come from the Northern franchaise ( both figures are stated to be approximate in number).

They then go on to say that these figures were based upon a number of assumptions, such as service patterns and the current train formations, that were known at the time when the electrification scheme was approved.

My original thread posting referred to the 40 Class 185 vehicles that are currently part of the TransPennine franchaise, as referred to in this report, once electrification works had been completed in the North West. I was not just asking a hypothetic question about the First TPE Class 185 vehicles based on a vague supposition, as I seemed to elicit from some of the first responses. I feel that further electrification will follow on, subject to any financial restraints, as part of the national strategy, but the current situation that the country finds itself in will lead to certain priorities taking precedence over other equally strong priorities over the term of this Parliament, if not the following one.

 

[lm321412]

With the idea of cascaded 185s, some could go to Birmingham-Hereford duties as they would be able to negotiate the Malvern hills and the notorious Lickey incline much better than the current 170s. Also greater capacity and 1st class would be a great improvement.

Once again like I think I said to you a few weeks back when you suggested 180s for Hereford - Birmingham, I think you are having favouritism to your own line. Whilst 170s are not the best units up the Lickey incline, I have never known them not being powerful enough for the line and they have certainly not got up there before. I don't see a greater increase in seating capacity either and definately don't see any need for First Class (although stupider lines have it aka - Bicester Town to Oxford or Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier).

I am not shooting you down, although this is your second "I think Hereford - Birmingham should get this" post and i'm afraid both are completely pointless.


I personally think, that Liverpool - Norwich would be best for 185s.

 

[WatcherZero]

That would be the supposed new build electric vehicles to operate Manchester-Scotland services your refering too that we are supposed to get in 2013 but which havent been ordered yet?

Tbh we dont really know who will operate them, whether TPE would be folded into Northern or resplit in a different shape or form, or whether the services would be transferred to Virgin or Cross Country franchises or where the 185's would be cascaded too if they were cascaded to a different operator at all.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

You would need to have a lot of infrastructure work in East Anglia for LIV-NRW to be 185 operated - because 185's are pretty much the heaviest unit on the network, they are unable to operate to any MU (Multiple Unit) or SP (Sprinter) speed differential, and I think Ely to Norwich is a 75/90SP limit from previous discussions on the matter - but I am happy to be corrected on that!

Good units though, although I do prefer the current 158's if I am going between Ely and Norwich!

 

[tbtc]

When I first posted this thread, I made the assumption that it was in the public domain about the Freedom of Information response by the DfT to a question about "The replacement of diesel vehicles by electric vehicles on the Northern and TransPennine Express franchaises, following the completion of electrification work in the North West", that was made in March this year.

The response given stated that the DfT estimated that 116 existing diesel vehicles would be replaced by electric vehicles and that their estimate was that 40 of these vehicles would come from the TransPennine franchaise and that the remaining 76 vehicles would come from the Northern franchaise ( both figures are stated to be approximate in number).

They then go on to say that these figures were based upon a number of assumptions, such as service patterns and the current train formations, that were known at the time when the electrification scheme was approved.

My original thread posting referred to the 40 Class 185 vehicles that are currently part of the TransPennine franchaise, as referred to in this report, once electrification works had been completed in the North West. I was not just asking a hypothetic question about the First TPE Class 185 vehicles based on a vague supposition, as I seemed to elicit from some of the first responses. I feel that further electrification will follow on, subject to any financial restraints, as part of the national strategy, but the current situation that the country finds itself in will lead to certain priorities taking precedence over other equally strong priorities over the term of this Parliament, if not the following one.

My "back of the envelope" maths had around fifteen 185s freed up by Lancashire electrification (allowing for a couple of units to go to Northern to cover Barrow/ Windermere, but lets not have that debate again).

I'm not sure where the "forty" figure comes from for a number of carriages, seeing as its not a multiple of three, but regardless I thought that the maths would be a fairly simple "Lancashire electrification means 185s are freed up which allows them to go to Yorkshire to replace all TPE 170s plus add a touch of capacity to the core Manchester - Leeds/York service).

No 185s going elsewhere, and the stock to replace them would either be 350-varient (Carlisle) or 319s (Blackpool)

 

[Max]

There would also be the option of moving stations like ...Brough off TPE services and those stations having more local services instead. (I'm not sure I should mention Brough though after a certain John Prescott blocked a previous move to take it off the Manchester-Hull route.)

Can't see Brough ever being taken off. It gets healthy passenger numbers, and economically it's a much more prosperous area than Hull itself (more businessmen off to Leeds and Manchester!).

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure where the "forty" figure comes from for a number of carriages, seeing as its not a multiple of three

The post you were replying to did say the numbers were approximate.

and the stock to replace them would either be 350-varient (Carlisle) or 319s (Blackpool)

Originally the plan was 350s for Scottish services and 319s for the Liverpool-Airport, Liverpool-Victoria and Liverpool-Wigan. However, the plans have been revised two or three times since then with more newly electrified routes being approved. The type of unit to be ordered for the Scottish services is now TBC, while the Coalition government has stated that the 319s may not go directly to the North of England and may instead go to another operator with their existing EMUs going to the North West. For instance, LM could get the 319s with the LM 323s going to the North West.

 

[sprinterguy]

Six car minimum sounds like a good idea, but they will soon be the most numerous stopping service at Chester-le-Street (about 4 1/2 "C3" cars long) and the platforms they usually get put into at Newcastle (9 and 10) are even shorter.

I think I can remember five carriage 158 formations squeezed into platform 9 in the past. Just barely. Though I may be remembering incorrectly, and perhaps they were four carriage formations (Might have to dig through my old photographs and have a look). I certainly do remember though that all the six carriage formations, and a lot of the five carriage ones, would arrive into platforms 3, 4 or 5+6.

You make a very good point about the restricted platform lengths in the north east. I hadn't realised that the platforms at Chester-le-Street are so short, and had failed to consider the restrictive length of the terminal platforms at Newcastle. Otherwise, I would have advocated five carriage class 444 style EMUs for TPE, assuming that replacement of the 185s occurs due to an electrification of TPE north. Four carriage units it'll have to be then.

The fifty one 185s could then go to ATW, and displace ATWs' 158s. Assuming that the Hope Valley line and TPE South would not be electrified, I would like to see those services absorbed into the EMT franchise, with the ATW 158s going to EMT to operate these services.

There must be routes in Wales that currently see 150 operation that would be suitable for 175s: The 175s would release 150s to go to the Valley Lines, and associated services, and replace the Pacers which could then be withdrawn. Assuming no electrification of the Valley Lines, that is. It may even be possible to cascade some of the ATW 150s to FGW to replace their Pacers.

I’ve left Northern out of this potential DMU cascade, as I would assume that electrification of TPE north would allow some Northern services to go over to EMU operation, freeing up a few Sprinters/Pacers.

 

[Nym]

TBH I don't see this as complicated at all really...

If the franchises stay in the same shape as they are now, but with Manc - Scotland being handed back over to ICWC

ICWC Operates Manchester Airport - Scotland via Chat Moss with 8 or 9 car 390s 2F,1F&SS,5S
1tph alternating interworked with Brum - Scotland (Also using new 390s)
ICWC Retain some 221s for working additional 'off wires' services, such as Blackburn, Barrow, Windermere, Southport etc. Possibly extended to 6 or 7 car by addition of pantographs and transformers at Bombardier (This would also come from XC gaining IEP Sets). Alternatvely, send the extra 221s to XC and they can ruin them by disabling TASS.

TP Operates Airport - North East / Yorkshire, Airport - Blackpool, Airport - Lakes & Airport - Cleethorpes as is, less Airport - Scotland. TP gets new electric stock, 4 carrages long with end gangways and SDO, proberbly siemens.
Potentially add Liverpool - Airport expresses to the TPE franchise if routed via Chat Moss and run with the new electric stock. With the 185s regained (and possibly keeping the 170s) an hourly service pattern for TPE of somthing like

Diesel:
Airport - Piccadilly - Victoria - Leeds via Diggle - Newcastle
Airport - Piccadilly - Victoria - Leeds via Diggle - Middlesbrough
Liverpool - Chat Moss - Victoria - Leeds via Diggle - Scarbrough
Chester - Warrington - Chat Moss - Victoria - Leeds via Diggle - Hull

Airport - Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston - Carnforth - Barrow / Windermere

Airport - Piccadilly - Stockport - Doncaster - Cleethorpes

Electric:
? Airport - Piccadilly - Chat Moss - Liverpool
Airport - Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool

Of course if it is specified that Liverpool gets a Scotland service again that changes a lot as it would need to be some of the same stock as TPE so then I would keep it within the TPE franchise and route via Wigan, hourly from both Manchester and Liverpool, joining and splitting at Wigan North Western. Since the above would only need 8 diagrams, and there is potential for more peak services by joining extra portions on at Preston it might be best to keep it with TPE and run with somthing like the 350/1 stock, but with a better 1st provision and onboard shop with a coffee machine etc.

So: If TPE where kept as is with the addition of Scotland - Liverpool routes, they'd proberbly need a fleet of 30 or so 350/1s.... I wonder where those could come from.....

Or of course, new ones, but with the way the IEP project is pressing on, if it does continue, London Midland could be set to receive 5 and 10 car IEPs for the longer distance routes, freeing their 350/1s

Or as has been previously pointed out, sending all of the 319s to London Midland, this could replace and suplement all of their 350 fleet, where the 350/1s could transfer to Transpennine Express for off Airport to Blackpool, Liverpool and Manchester & Liverpool - Scotland services. And 350/2 to Northern.

London Midland would gain a bigger, fleet, and we'd get some nice nearly new stock for ooop norf. In addition to that, the numbers fit.

Of course, LM could retain their 350/2 and send their 321s up north instead, having all of them in one place with Northern seems sensible, and Longsight are pretty good at maintaining them.

Oh PS: Great Western would be getting the Class 365 Networker Express, all 40 of them, enmasse, for GW Electric routes on that plan.

There'll be plenty to go around when thameslink gets its new stock, the priority of course being lancs triangle as it's being finished first.

But to go around there'll be:

12 * 317/1
86 * 319
13 * 321
40 * 365

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The post you were replying to did say the numbers were approximate.



Originally the plan was 350s for Scottish services and 319s for the Liverpool-Airport, Liverpool-Victoria and Liverpool-Wigan. However, the plans have been revised two or three times since then with more newly electrified routes being approved. The type of unit to be ordered for the Scottish services is now TBC, while the Coalition government has stated that the 319s may not go directly to the North of England and may instead go to another operator with their existing EMUs going to the North West. For instance, LM could get the 319s with the LM 323s going to the North West.

Thank you for claryfying the first item. I was sure that I had used the word "approximate", as this is what the DfT had said in their response.

I thought the "brave new world" of Government might have this time moved to ensure that the North West would receive BRAND NEW stock, but, as you say, the word "cascade" comes to the fore. It brought the song sung by Barbra Streisand to mind "SECOND HAND ROSE" and the line .... "I NEVER GET A SINGLE THING THAT'S NEW":cry:

Incidentally, on the matter of set formations, to go back a few years, were the "Trans-Pennine" DMU sets that ran between Liverpool and Hull via Manchester Victoria five or six coach sets. They always looked very modern in those far-off days.

 

[tbtc]

I thought the "brave new world" of Government might have this time moved to ensure that the North West would receive BRAND NEW stock, but, as you say, the word "cascade" comes to the fore. It brought the song sung by Barbra Streisand to mind "SECOND HAND ROSE" and the line .... "I NEVER GET A SINGLE THING THAT'S NEW":cry:

Hmm...

In terms of local services the North West has:

• Electrification planned between Manchester/ Liverpool/ Blackpool
• New units tendered for Merseyrail
• Big expansion of Manchester Metrolink in the next couple of years
• 175s and 180s on local routes

Yorkshire has had:

• No new "light rail" since about 1994, with proposals for Leeds and for extensions in Sheffield rejected
• No new electrification since about 1994 (when we initially got Class 308s from the 1960s, with a coach taken out of each train), later replaced by 333s

Both sides of the Pennines have had new "long distance" stock (185, 220,221 etc, with 222s in Yorkshire and 390s in Lancashire)

Incidentally, on the matter of set formations, to go back a few years, were the "Trans-Pennine" DMU sets that ran between Liverpool and Hull via Manchester Victoria five or six coach sets. They always looked very modern in those far-off days

We only have three coach trains these days, but a (fast) train every fifteen minutes between Manchester and Leeds. Trains were longer back then, but a lot less frequent.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yorkshires also had the rebuilding and expansion of Leeds station twice and the planned speed improvements of the general network.

 

[northwichcat]

[*]New units tendered for Merseyrail

The 507s and 508s were built in the 1970s - the oldest multiple units in the North and were due for replacement before now. The long Merseyrail franchise was drawn up with the intention of the operator part funding the new units - which doesn't happen in most franchises.

[*]175s and 180s on local routes

180s OK but that is only because FGW took the 'spare' 142s and the FNW 158s went to Yorkshire.

The only regular routes 175s run in the North West are:
* Manchester to Carmathen/Milford Haven
* Holyhead to Cardiff via Chester
* Manchester to Llandudno

i.e. no regular local routes. They do also run some peak time extras between Manchester and Chester only and run a couple of Crewe-Chester shuttles per day but the latter is only for stock movement.

Don't forget the North West has mainly 142s and 150s on local routes, while Yorkshire overall gets mainly 144s and 158s.

(when we initially got Class 308s from the 1960s, with a coach taken out of each train), later replaced by 333s

The North West still had 101s from the 1950s until 2001.

Both sides of the Pennines have had new "long distance" stock (185, 220,221 etc, with 222s in Yorkshire and 390s in Lancashire)

The North West has seen 22xs being replaced by inferior 185s.

Also note that Crewe-London is operated by 350s whereas Sheffield-London is operated by 222s - both may be newish but the 222s are far superior.

 

[tbtc]

The only regular routes 175s run in the North West are:
* Manchester to Carmathen/Milford Haven
* Holyhead to Cardiff via Chester
* Manchester to Llandudno

i.e. no regular local routes

175s were used on Manchester Airport - Blackpool/ Windermere/ Barrow though, haven't they?

Don't forget the North West has mainly 142s and 150s on local routes, while Yorkshire overall gets mainly 144s and 158s

I'm not sure where you get the idea of "mainly 158s" on "local" routes from. There are a couple on the Manchester - Leeds - Selby - Leeds - Wakefield "grand tour" (an operational nightmare). However the rest of the 158s in Yorkshire are regularly on routes like

• Sheffield - Scarborough
• Leeds - Nottingham
• Leeds - Carlisle
• York - Blackpool

There's a lot more 142s on "local" routes in Yorkshire

Also note that Crewe-London is operated by 350s whereas Sheffield-London is operated by 222s - both may be newish but the 222s are far superior.

Crewe is a town with around 65,000 people.Despite this it gets one Pendolino to London each hour (the service from Manchester) and one Voyager to Manchester each hour (the service from Holyhead/ Chester) - both are "fast" services (with only a couple of stops). If you sat on a 350 all the way from Crewe to London you'd need your head looking at...

Sheffield has a population of over half a million, and had just one train an hour to London until a couple of years ago. Not a great comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The North West still had 101s from the 1950s until 2001

I only referred to the 308s to respond to the argument that Lancashire is getting a bad deal in replacing its Pacers for mid-life EMUs (and not brand new ones).

The Shipley lines got old EMUs, in the way that the Bathgate electrification isn't getting brand new EMUs either.

 

[Waverley125]

I think any new stock replacement plan has to consider wiring on TP. Personally I think it'd be best to plan for

Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool
Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester-Leeds-York
Micklefield-Hull
and Northallerton-Middlesbrough

You then would run

1tph Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh ICWC w/Pendolino
1tph Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh ICWC w/Pendolino

As stoppers i.e. Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow / , Haymaket, Edinburgh

allowing the hourly London Service to run Warrington-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow

I'd then add

1tph Liverpool-Newcastle (Warrington, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Newcastle)

1tph Liverpool-Hull (South Pway, Widnes, Warrington, Manchester, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds, Selby, Brough, Hull)

1tph Airport-Middlesbrough (Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby, Middlesbrough

1tph Airport-Newcastle (Piccadilly, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)

1tph Picadilly-Hull (Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Selby, Brough, Hull)

1tph Airport-Blackpool/Barrow

1tph Airport-Liverpool (Picadilly, Oxford Rd, Irlam, Birchwood, Warrington, Widnes, South Pway, Lime St)

all operated by 5-car 344s (444s with pant.)

some 185s would still run the South TP services, while others could be used on new routes, e.g.

Bradford-Halifax-Todmorden-Victoria-Newton le Willows-Liverpool LS

Scarborough-Malton-York-Garforth-Leeds-Bradford Int-Halifax-Sowerby Bridge-Burnley M Rd-Accrington-Blackburn-Preston-Poulton-Blackpool

 

[northwichcat]

175s were used on Manchester Airport - Blackpool/ Windermere/ Barrow though, haven't they?

Yes in the past but they were replacement for 1950s stock. How much 1950s stock did Yorkshire have to replace in 2000-2001 at the same time as they were showing off their shiny new 333s.

I'm not sure where you get the idea of "mainly 158s" on "local" routes from.

I said mainly 144s and 158s, which do make up the majority of stock of Yorkshire services. There's also 155s, 153s, 142s and 150s thrown in but in much smaller numbers.

Sheffield - Scarborough

That's like saying Buxton-Blackpool. There's a few services but the majority are Sheffield-Hull and Hull-Scarborough as two shorter services with Hull-Scarborough exclusively 158s.

There's a lot more 142s on "local" routes in Yorkshire

Most of the 142s are based at Newton Heath with some being based at Heaton. Apart from a few Sheffield services 142s are practically non-existent in Yorkshire. How many do you see at Hull, Leeds, York, Scarborough etc. compared to Liverpool, Manchester, Preston, Blackpool?

Crewe is a town with around 65,000 people. Sheffield has a population of over half a million.

Crewe station gets among the highest level of interchanges in the country and is actually a bigger busier station than Sheffield. I've been to both on a few occasions.

both are "fast" services (with only a couple of stops). If you sat on a 350 all the way from Crewe to London you'd need your head looking at. Sheffield had just one train an hour to London until a couple of years ago. Not a great comparison.

Many stations in the North West Midlands have had their Virgin express service removed or cut and instead get a slow 350 service.

You seem to be in a false illusion that Yorkshire gets a poor deal to the North West when in fact overall it's the other way around.

 

[Class172]

Once again like I think I said to you a few weeks back when you suggested 180s for Hereford - Birmingham, I think you are having favouritism to your own line. Whilst 170s are not the best units up the Lickey incline, I have never known them not being powerful enough for the line and they have certainly not got up there before. I don't see a greater increase in seating capacity either and definately don't see any need for First Class (although stupider lines have it aka - Bicester Town to Oxford or Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier).

I am not shooting you down, although this is your second "I think Hereford - Birmingham should get this" post and i'm afraid both are completely pointless.


I personally think, that Liverpool - Norwich would be best for 185s.

I probably am quite biased to that line, I should stop the habit

I still think they'll be good in Wales, I like the sound of a Liverpool-Norwich running though

 

[northwichcat]

I probably am quite biased to that line, I should stop the habit

Imagine if everyone using the forum was like you. We'd have a very long list of lines 185s could be cascaded to. It would probably include every line Pacers run on as 185s are bigger and deal with leaf problems much better than Pacers.

Can't see Brough ever being taken off. It gets healthy passenger numbers, and economically it's a much more prosperous area than Hull itself (more businessmen off to Leeds and Manchester!).

I've only been to Hull once on a TPE service and I remember the only people who got on at Brough were a group of middle aged women who'd had too much to drink. The train was actually doing Manchester-Hull-Bridlington (it was being run by TPE using a 158 subleased from FNW) and I was glad I was getting off at Hull while the drunk women were staying on to Bridlington.

 

[Class172]

Imagine if everyone using the forum was like you. We'd have a very long list of lines 185s could be cascaded to. It would probably include every line Pacers run on as 185s are bigger and deal with leaf problems much better than Pacers.

Anyway, more seriously: Cascades,

• Thameslink 319s go to London Midland
• LM 321s and 323s (if possible) go to Northern
• Class 365s go to FGW
• FGW 165/166 services replace 158 services
• FGW 158s to EMT/Northern

I think this works

Then if the 185s ever got displaced from FTPE following electrification, I'd give them to ATW then in turn their 158s can go to EMT or Northern

 

[OxtedL]

Imagine if everyone using the forum was like you. We'd have a very long list of lines 185s could be cascaded to.

Somewhere in the semi-distant future, Uckfield will need more stock for 10-car trains, so I thought a total replacement of 171s with 185s...

Radical, I know, but...

More likely to inherit TpE 170s if anything.