Class 185 future replacements

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would be the best type of replacement be and how many cars should it have? If replacement stock arrived, where would the existing fleet go?

 

[ainsworth74]

Bit early to be thinking about a 185 replacement just yet isn't it? They're only about 5-6 years old!

But when they are replaced I would hope that it would be on the back of full scale transpennine electrification so I would propose an EMU of 4-5 cars (or possibly more depending on what future loadings are like) probably along the lines of the 444. For the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh once the wires are up I believe the plan is for something along the lines of a 350 to run the services. As for the existing fleet no idea, I've always suspect that 185s might well spend out their lives on transpennine routes so would go into retirement. If the do have life left then perhaps they could be cascaded onto routes currently worked by 165/168/170s?

 

[northwichcat]

Replacement stock should be 6 car minimum.

The 185s were built to be good at hill climbing so probably the best routes for them to be cascaded on to would be either the local Pennine routes e.g. Calder Vale, Buxton line etc. or/and Welsh routes that would involve a lot of climbing.
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Bit early to be thinking about a 185 replacement just yet isn't it? They're only about 5-6 years old!

175s were replaced on North West routes around 5-6 years after introduction and how long did 170s last on MML?

 

[T163R]

Bit early to be thinking about a 185 replacement just yet isn't it? They're only about 5-6 years old!

I think Paul Sidorczuk is talking about a replacement on a line: the Class 185 will go on other lines, not to scrap !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bit early to be thinking about a 185 replacement just yet isn't it? They're only about 5-6 years old!

But if when they are replaced I would hope that it would be on the back of full scale transpennine electrification so I would propose an EMU of 4-5 cars (or possibly more depending on what future loadings are like) probably along the lines of the 444.

I was thinking of the other areas where they would be cascaded, considering their abilities, once electrification is further extended.
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I think Paul Sidorczuk is talking about a replacement on a line: the Class 185 will go on other lines, not to scrap !

Oui. c'est ca

I hope that your coming visit is enjoyable....saw your posting

 

[T163R]

Oui. c'est ca

I hope that your coming visit is enjoyable....saw your posting

Thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

175s were replaced on North West routes around 5-6 years after introduction and how long did 170s last on MML?

I suppose so still it seems a bit odd too consider replacing a young fleet that is quite suited to the routes that they are currently on when there are plenty of other units around that are both much older and not suitable for their routes? Obviously if electrification in a big way takes place on the TPE routes then new rolling stock would of course be needed

I was thinking of the other areas where they would be cascaded, considering their abilities, once electrification is further extended.

See my edited first post for my thoughts on that

But jcollins has an interesting idea of using them on Welsh runs, I don't think they're really suitable for local runs on the tranpennine area, but inter-regional runs like those that the 175s currently operate on might be an interesting idea.

 

[anthony263]

I wouldnt mind using the class 185s on Llandudno to Manchester services to allow the class 175's to provide extra capacity on the Milford Haven - Cardiff -Manchester service

 

[Class172]

With the idea of cascaded 185s, some could go to Birmingham-Hereford duties as they would be able to negotiate the Malvern hills and the notorious Lickey incline much better than the current 170s. Also greater capacity and 1st class would be a great improvement.

 

[T163R]

Maybe they should go on lines where their EcoMode will be useful !

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe they should go on lines where their EcoMode will be useful !

Well that's just about anywhere in the country apart from the highlands of Scotland! Seriously 185s are very overpowered and can quite happily operate on two engines for considerable periods of time even on their current duties.

 

[Class172]

Maybe they should go on lines where their EcoMode will be useful !

Aye, like I said, that would work on the Hereford line: as well as having the steepest mainline section, it also has some very long flat bits, and the average time between stations is over 10mins so Eco-mode can be used.

 

[WestCoast]

With the idea of cascaded 185s, some could go to Birmingham-Hereford duties as they would be able to negotiate the Malvern hills and the notorious Lickey incline much better than the current 170s. Also greater capacity and 1st class would be a great improvement.

With respect, I think they are needed elsewhere much more, LM seems to be getting quite enough new stock. These units are currently being used on 3h30mins + runs.

They function extremely well as regional trains (although they are overpowered), they are well liked on shorter Blackpool North/Barrow - Manchester Airport runs. Later in their life I could see them working well on regional services, but with their power in coming years it's more long distance services.

 

[Class172]

With respect, I think they are needed elsewhere much more, LM seems to be getting quite enough new stock. These units are currently being used on 3h30mins + runs.

They function extremely well as regional trains (although they are overpowered), they are well liked on shorter Blackpool North/Barrow - Manchester Airport runs. Later in their life I could see them working well on regional services, but with their power in coming years it's more long distance services.

I suppose, with the new 172s, which have higher power anyway.

Could 185s do well in Wales, especially the North coast line and the Welsh Marches line?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well norwich liverpool is my first choice to do it... make them 6 car?

Or maybe york blackpool?

I doubt all the tpe route would get electrified anyway

 

[tbtc]

Bit early to be thinking about a 185 replacement just yet isn't it? They're only about 5-6 years old!

But when they are replaced I would hope that it would be on the back of full scale transpennine electrification

Agreed.

Any talk of replacements depends on electrification of the Transpennine lines, and that really depends on which lines are wired.

The obvious part is Liverpool - York, fairly good business case there. But would Middlesbrough/Scarborough get wired, or become "stand alone" services? Can the swing bridge at Selby be electrified for the wires to get to Hull? Will the Cleethorpes line ever get electrification?

Who knows, so there's not a lot you can say about replacement stock.

However, if replacement stock arrives then the logical three places for 185s are

Scotland. 185s as Turbostar replacements once the main lines are electrified, on duties such as Edinburgh/Glasgow - Inverness, where the hill climbing abilities would come in handy. The three coach 170s can be cascaded elsewhere.

Wales. The numbers match up fairly well to replace 158/175s, giving longer trains/ more seats on most services (awaits pedantic correction about a three car 175 having marginally more standard class seats). But would the First Class be needed at ATW, considering they only have one service with First Class on it (the WAG Express)? 175s go to NXEA to cascade 156/170s, 158s go to Northern/ EMT/ FGW.

Northern England. Replacing 158s on routes like York - Blackpool, Nottingham - Leeds, Sheffield - Scarborough... the numbers work so that Northern would get more trains (three coach to replace two coach), allowing 158s to go to EMT/ ATW/ FGW

What I would say is that the class of 185s isn;t *that* big, I'd like to see them kept together.

 

[IanXC]

I agree that they're probably not going anywhere without TPE North electrification. However if that were to happen...

Firstly York-Blackpool would become Scarborough-Blackpool under current plans, so given the suggestions that the route would be suitable for 185s I'd put them on this route so that Scarborough doesn't see a decline in the quality of its stock.

Not knowing enough about the diagrams etc I'd say keep them on Barrow and Windermere, and consider whether to use the rest of the fleet on South TPE and Norwich-Liverpool. Although I feel like that might be stretching the stock slightly too far?

Northern England. Replacing 158s on routes like York - Blackpool, Nottingham - Leeds, Sheffield - Scarborough... the numbers work so that Northern would get more trains (three coach to replace two coach), allowing 158s to go to EMT/ ATW/ FGW

What I would say is that the class of 185s isn;t *that* big, I'd like to see them kept together.

Like this - with the opportunity to expand capacity for Northern - particularly know about Sheffield-Scarborough which is reaching capacity with 2 car units, but unlikely to need to go beyond 3 in the foreseeable future - and thus avoid the need to use 185s in multiple.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

With the idea of cascaded 185s, some could go to Birmingham-Hereford duties as they would be able to negotiate the Malvern hills and the notorious Lickey incline much better than the current 170s. Also greater capacity and 1st class would be a great improvement.

Somebody's had my idea!

We'll have a good old fashioned diesel desiro on The Chase Line, on the lines to Shrewsbury......

 

[northwichcat]

But would the First Class be needed at ATW, considering they only have one service with First Class on it

Whether the FC area is an issue depends whether you're talking about a 2012 cascade or a 2020 cascade. Spending a lot of money refurbishing the units in 2012 including removal of FC would be seen by some as a waste in 2012 but not in 2020.

What I would say is that the class of 185s isn;t *that* big, I'd like to see them kept together.

Good point. It's also worth remembering the 175/180 issue - both unreliable when built. The 175s have always been based at the purpose built Altsom Chester depot, on the other hand the 180s have been all over the place. The reliability of 175s has improved where 180s remain unreliable.

For that reason I think the 185s would be best remaining at the purpose built Ardwick depot. Based there they could continue to run current TPE routes or other routes that serve the North West. We expect the TPE franchise to be revised in the future

 

[YorkshireBear]

i definitely dont think york scarbrough will ever be high up the list to be electrified so... agree with extending the york blackpool to scabrough.

I think partial electrification of TPE routes to allow internal cascades where possible and either add routes or TPE take over routes to keep stock at the purpose built depots and with same operator

 

[ainsworth74]

For that reason I think the 185s would be best remaining at the purpose built Ardwick depot. Based there they could continue to run current TPE routes or other routes that serve the North West. We expect the TPE franchise to be revised in the future

I was thinking that. That's why I quite like tbtc's idea of using on longer distance Northern runs as in that case the 185s could remain being maintained at the purpose built Ardwick and York depots. It would also be nice to the North do well out of some rolling stock cascades!

 

[T163R]

185s are very overpowered

[LOLMODEON] That's maybe why they need EcoMode ! [/LOLMODEOFF]

 

[ainsworth74]

[LOLMODEON] That's maybe why they need EcoMode ! [/LOLMODEOFF]

Perhaps

Certainly it's the reason why they can have an EcoMode

 

[tbtc]

I was thinking that. That's why I quite like tbtc's idea of using on longer distance Northern runs as in that case the 185s could remain being maintained at the purpose built Ardwick and York depots. It would also be nice to the North do well out of some rolling stock cascades!

Now I've noticed that Northern have 46x 158s, and there are 51x 185s, I like the idea of Northern taking the 185s (post TPE electrification etc). The additional few units would be needed for Northern taking over the York - Scarborough line (and maybe a few more 185s on the Calder Valley line, where the 158s don't make up the majority)

Perfect for some of the hilly routes Northern operate, keep them based at Manchester/York... plus the 158s can be well used on EMT/ FGW/ ATW etc - everyone's a winner?

 

[ainsworth74]

Perfect for some of the hilly routes Northern operate, keep them based at Manchester/York... plus the 158s can be well used on EMT/ FGW/ ATW etc - everyone's a winner?

Which is why it will never happen :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Now I've noticed that Northern have 46x 158s, and there are 51x 185s, I like the idea of Northern taking the 185s (post TPE electrification etc). The additional few units would be needed for Northern taking over the York - Scarborough line (and maybe a few more 185s on the Calder Valley line, where the 158s don't make up the majority)

Perfect for some of the hilly routes Northern operate, keep them based at Manchester/York... plus the 158s can be well used on EMT/ FGW/ ATW etc - everyone's a winner?

Out of interest how quickly do you propose electrification happening?

I imagine 158s will be due for replacement between 2024 and 2029 and there's already a list of lines to be electrified not including North TPE, South TPE or Barrow and there doesn't seem to be a rush to get the lines electrified because there's no EMUs available to be used on them for quite a while yet.

 

[IanXC]

I don't think North TPE electrification is that far down the list, particularly if the current proposed electrifications are followed by a rolling programme and/or if capacity on North TPE's and/or CrossCountry's current stock continues to worsen. Network Rail's Electrification RUS assesses the high socio-economic electrification schemes involving conversion of existing passenger services as follows:

MML BCR "effectively infinite" positive business case over appraisal period
Berks and Hants BCR "effectively infinite" positive business case over appraisal period

Cross Country BCR 5.1 (or 3.4 including Leeds-Coulton costs)
Basingstoke-Exeter BCR 3.1
GWML BCR between positive and >2.0
North Cross-Pennine BCR 1.6 (or positive if Leeds-Coulton Junction costs are allocated to the Cross Country scheme)
Snow Hill Lines BCR 1.0
Manchester to Preston, Blackpool North and Windermere BCR 0.7

So excluding already announced schemes, and considering which routes have the most pressure on their current rolling stock, North TPE electrification within the next 15 years doesn't sound quite so unlikely!

 

[WatcherZero]

What about northern Scotland, would there be enough passengers?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think North TPE electrification is that far down the list, particularly if the current proposed electrifications are followed by a rolling programme and/or if capacity on North TPE's and/or CrossCountry's current stock continues to worsen.

I can see Manchester Airport-Newcastle and a truncated Liverpool-York service becoming EMU services but for North TPE to become 100% EMUs it would require routes used for diversions to also be electrified such as Calder Vale and both Liverpool-Manchester lines.

 

[Nym]

IMO, the current situation with the 185s is that they should all stay at TPE, when the Scotland and Blackpool services move over to EMU operation, it will displace a fair few 185s from them routes, but they'll be needed for other TPE routes, on TPE North, and to re-instate the MIA - Windermere service, to get back to an hourly clock face MIA - Lakes service alternating between Barrow and Windermere.

And more stock to strengthen services across the pennines would never go amiss, espceially since the fleet is 9 short and short formed anyway. Then TPE can potentially afford to loose the turbostars (although personally I'd keep them aswell for the isolated Hull - Manchester route, doubled up all the time), 9 is a good number for that route, 1tph each way, 2hr router, I work it to be 4 or 5 diagrams, so it would need one 185 in to make it up, one 170 on servicing per day and the rest as dedicated doubled up 170s.

The TPE NW Blackpool uses 4 diagrams IIRC, and the scotland uses 8 diagrams (I think). So freeing these 12 units up wouldn't be enough to get rid of the turbostars, but it would be enough to double up a lot of services across the pennines, and restore the windermere services. There aren't any routes that could use the turbostars and nothing else (if the diagrams are all doubled up), unless they where used for the new 'inter urban' service from Manchester Vic to Leeds / York at 2tph that is mentioned in the RUS.

MCV - Ashton - Stalybridge - Huddersfeild - Dewsbry - Leeds 2tph. But that would proberbly be best with Northern or 'TPE connect'