Class 185 Extension

[WillPS]

I understand that when the 185s were ordered, an option was left to build an extra centre-car for each train (and an additional 9 complete 4-car 185s possibly). This option expired, not least since the engines are no longer in production.

My question is, what's to stop Siemens building a compatible centre-car using a different engine? The body shell is essentially similar to other Desiros is it not?

 

[Class172]

Do they even need another engine?? There already rediculously powerful for their size, can't they just make an unpowered coach for a formation of: DMC-TS-MS-DMSL

 

[rail-britain]

I would agree with that, given that the Class 185 can operate in economy mode with one engine switched off on certain routes
Fitting the TS with a smaller diesel engine (making it a MS) would probably be the solution, this engine could then be used instead for economy mode

 

[Nym]

Don't even complicate issues bu doing that, just order unpowered coaches.

Back of fag packet calculation

One class 185, 3 coach: 168.5tonnes

With all engines on 13.35bhp/tonne
In 'eco mode' 8.9bhp/tonne

With an extra unpowered coach at lets say, ?35 tonnes

Total mass now: 203.5 tonnes

All engines on: 11.05 bhp/tonne

And 51 vehicles isn't too smaller order for it to be silly for Seimens to process, especially if we're ordering more 350/3 Vehicles for the electrified sections of TPE. (Not including Manc - Scot, that should be 390s)

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe I'm being niave, but I would think that a trailer vehicle for a 185 would be very similar to the TCO/TSO vehicle in a 350 or 360 in all but vehicle length. If that's the case then ordering fifty one unpowered trailers for the 185s would be a very simple thing to do.

 

[starrymarkb]

I think DfT thought that Siemens were too expensive (esp given £-€ rates at the time). Hence when they tendered for new Diesels a few years ago all but one of the bidders were from the low cost end of the spectrum with two from the far east (CSR and Hyundai)

 

[rail-britain]

If that's the case then ordering fifty one unpowered trailers for a 185 would be a very simple thing to do

Yes, I agree a trailer makes more operational sense
However, this would probably mean an end to the economy mode
Also, I would suggest the trailer be a TC, with the DMC modified into a DMS
That way both driver vehicles are fairly identical, plus the First Class coach is then quieter, plus the remaining Standard layout could be offered as quiet coach

Ironically, as mentioned elsewhere, when the next West Coast franchise commences if agreement can be reached on replacing the Voyagers used between Birmingham and Scotland, these could temporarily be cascaded to FTPE for exclusive use between Scotland and Manchester, thus releasing several of their Class 185 units to strengthen other services or increase frequency

 

[Nym]

But where would the 390s come from to do that?

Either way TPE still needs the 180s extending for the TPE North services, the're pridiced by ARUP to need to all be 8 carrage diagrams in the near future.

 

[WillPS]

Would it be alright running on 2 engines though (if one failed)?

 

[MCR247]

Probably, I mean ignoring Eco-mode, 185s still have two power notches locked OOU so if they Siemens & TPE made it possible for trains to use P7 but just advised against it unless they needed it, then I think 185s would be fine on 2 engines with 4 coaches

 

[bluenoxid]

Nym, make the trailer 40 tonnes at least.

I don't have a clue where these extra trains would come from for Scotland - Regional Cities. The best thing to do would be to order a 380 variant for both of the routes. Ordered now and they would be able to spool off the production lines pretty quickly. Get them tested and acquiring mileage before 2013 when the services can be launched straightaway.

 

[RobShipway]

If the Voyagers are to be replaced, so that they are available then for use by FTPE then surely it makes better sense to add an extra car to the Voyagers with a pentograph on top so that they become proper DEMU trains as discussed many times in earlier threads than for Siemens provide an extra car for the class 185's unless that extra carriage also has a pantograph?

 

[Nym]

If the Voyagers are to be replaced, so that they are available then for use by FTPE then surely it makes better sense to add an extra car to the Voyagers with a pentograph on top so that they become proper DEMU trains as discussed many times in earlier threads than for Siemens provide an extra car for the class 185's unless that extra carriage also has a pantograph?

I don't hink either of these will happen though, the former because the DfT is afraid to not use Hitachi for bi mode stock because the chances are that Bombardiers will be better, and Voyagers aren't syuted to the TPE routes, unless the're all doubled up, or lengthened to 6/7 coaches by inserting panto cars.

The latter, again, DfT...

 

[MCR247]

If the Voyagers are to be replaced, so that they are available then for use by FTPE then surely it makes better sense to add an extra car to the Voyagers with a pentograph on top so that they become proper DEMU trains as discussed many times in earlier threads than for Siemens provide an extra car for the class 185's unless that extra carriage also has a pantograph?

Why would voyagers need replacing? And why would TPE need them? They aren't suited to TPE at all like Nym said

 

[Class172]

FTPE would be better with an 8 car turbostar, whether that would be DMU or DEMU I don't know

 

[MCR247]

In this thread I think people are confusing DEMU and EDMU.

DEMU A diesel only train. Diesel engines power electronic generators
EDMU the above with a pantograph

 

[RobShipway]

In this thread I think people are confusing DEMU and EDMU.

DEMU A diesel only train. Diesel engines power electronic generators
EDMU the above with a pantograph

An EDMU train is what is needed fro the Manchester - Scotland routes run by FTPE, but I cannot seem them getting that or any Hitachi bi - mode train to serve these routes. Turbostar/Electrostar combination train I believe would not be sufficient for future demands, yes maybe sufficient for today's demands but you have to think what will be required 30 - 40 years time given the life that trains tend to be run for in this country.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Right then this is ever so slightly off topic but not worth a new thread.

Consider all the TPE routes. On each one what is the maximum length a train can be.

Cos i was thinking newcastle man airport, could that take 6-8 easily?

Calling pattern, newcastle chester le street durham darlington northallerton york leeds huddersfeidl man pic man air?

Could someoen let me know about other routes. I know south TPE can take 4 car max. (meadowhall)

 

[ainsworth74]

Could someoen let me know about other routes. I know south TPE can take 4 car max. (meadowhall)

The Middlesbrough route is probably close to maximum as it is now. Yarm is full with a 3 car unit, but shouldn't be to hard to extend as there is plenty of space down the track side. Thornaby might well also be full, but there is some disused platform that could take it up to 4 cars. Middlesbrough could probably take 4/5 now and there is some disused platform that could take it up to 6/7.

Going out to Scarborough, Malton has enough disused platform to go to 5/6 I would have thought (but right now 3/4 I think is close to max). Seamer is the same as Malton shortish now but plenty of disused platform that could be brought back into service. Scarborough itself could easily take 8+.

Going to Hull, Selby could take 8+ I would have thought, Brough could take 6 at least and Hull itself most platforms could take 6 and three of the platforms could probably take 7/8 (a HST just fits on those platforms with a power car hanging off the end of the platform).

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Thornaby can easily take a 4-car, as 185's currently stop in the centre not taking up full space. Yarm is full with 3-car, but as has been said can easily be extended. Middlesbrough can easily take 6 car, it's a pretty long platform and i've seen a 142 come in behind the TPE.

I think Thirsk may be an issue?

 

[ainsworth74]

Thornaby can easily take a 4-car, as 185's currently stop in the centre not taking up full space.

Thanks for clearing that up, I've never actually seen a 185 in the platforms at Thornaby (I only ever pass through never get off), so I wasn't sure.

I think Thirsk may be an issue?

It can accommodate GC HSTs and their formation is 2+5 isn't it so you should be able to get at least a 6 car unit on those platforms I would have thought?

 

[Class172]

In this thread I think people are confusing DEMU and EDMU.

DEMU A diesel only train. Diesel engines power electronic generators
EDMU the above with a pantograph

I did mean DEMU, if your talking to me, I've never heard of a EDMU

 

[Anvil1984]

Chester Le Street can only take 5 cars on the down platform

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Ah very true, didnt think it through haha!

 

[MCR247]

I did mean DEMU, if your talking to me, I've never heard of a EDMU

That is because there hasn't been any so far

A DEMU is a 221/220/222/Thumper at present. If you added a pantograph it wouldn't really be a DEMU

 

[Donny Dave]

Right then this is ever so slightly off topic but not worth a new thread.

Consider all the TPE routes. On each one what is the maximum length a train can be.

Cos i was thinking newcastle man airport, could that take 6-8 easily?

Calling pattern, newcastle chester le street durham darlington northallerton york leeds huddersfeidl man pic man air?

Could someoen let me know about other routes. I know south TPE can take 4 car max. (meadowhall)

The only station on the South TPE route that can't take a 6 car 185 is Habrough. Meadowhall, along with Scunthorpe (P1) can both just fit 6 carriages into the platform.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think hull route can take 6 car as i saw a 6 car 160 on the line today.

 

[Nym]

An ideal train for TPE would be somthing like a 4 car 185 with end gangway connectors, you know, how they wanted to order in the first place.

If I where ordering somthing new for TPE and moving the 185s on elsewhere, NT for example, ie. Blank Slate for TPE.

I'd be ordering...

If there isn't going to be any further electrification, 4 car EDMUs.

TPE North
Class 610 formed of:

Driving Motor Generator Combined Buffet
Generator Motor Standard
Transformer & Pantograph Motor Standard
Driving Motor Generator Standard

All with end gangways, 100mph stock, 1/3 + 2/3 doors.

Basically looks like a turbostar, but with ED Traction packagaes.

Alternativley, Electrify all of it, all of TPE, possibly to scarbrough, or loco haul to scarbrough with DVT compatabilty at the end cabs. And have end gangwayed 4 carrage 350s or 380s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Alternativley, Electrify all of it, all of TPE, possibly to scarbrough, or loco haul to scarbrough with DVT compatabilty at the end cabs. And have end gangwayed 4 carrage 350s or 380s.

Better idea for scarbrough is to cut service to york, provide emu all stops leeds york and make york blackpool a scarbrough blackpool express

 

[Anvil1984]

I think hull route can take 6 car as i saw a 6 car 160 on the line today.

First of all a 6 car what now?

TPE Hull route can't take 6 cars, especially on a Sunday where they have to stop at South Milford which is limited at 3 x 23m carriages, The rest of the stops can take them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Better idea for scarbrough is to cut service to york, provide emu all stops leeds york and make york blackpool a scarbrough blackpool express

But the original post stated if there wasn't going to be further electrification, so a EMU Leeds to York would be useless unless it went via Doncaster