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Class 175s to GWR
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BillStampy
Established Member
Did think I had read that somewhere, I skim read over the 197 thread nowadays!
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175003 spent most of it's day parked up at Par Chapel Siding due to a lack of staff to operate the Newquay services. It's now returning to Laira 5P27.
Snow1964
Established Member
I don't think it has happened (yet), but in theory could deliver 2 (or more) units coupled,
2 units have been at Wolverton over 6 months,
another 5 units over 4 months.
How long does it take to do them ?
175 102 has been at Wolverton since 30 Oct 2025
175 110 has been at Wolverton since 30 Jan
175 107 & 108 both since 19 March
175 103 & 105 both since 27 March
175 109 since 16 April
7 units stuck in the works for 4+ months is not helping availability for service. Now they have experience of doing them, would expect quicker throughput.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
Perhaps the extra time spent at Wolverton is being spent dealing with issues that have arisen since the other sets introduction were into service? If this is the case then any unit coming from Wolverton should have a better reliability.
REVUpminster
Established Member
175003 seemed to be the only train out at the weekend on Newquay, but failed yesterday due to issue with the crew. Air conditioning? something else?
003 was one of the more successful units.
The 150s soldier on.
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175003 is out again today on 2C05 and 175006 on training to Paignton and elsewhere. Cannot see any thing else.
2 short formed services from Paignton and 1 from Barnstaple (the busy train) has enabled three 150s to pick up 175 diagrams.
Another unrelated item 9 car trains are time tabled to stop at Paignton platform 1. They were doing it unofficially at the weekend They still run empty to Torquay on the return.
003 was one of the more successful units.
The 150s soldier on.
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175003 is out again today on 2C05 and 175006 on training to Paignton and elsewhere. Cannot see any thing else.
2 short formed services from Paignton and 1 from Barnstaple (the busy train) has enabled three 150s to pick up 175 diagrams.
Another unrelated item 9 car trains are time tabled to stop at Paignton platform 1. They were doing it unofficially at the weekend They still run empty to Torquay on the return.
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BillStampy
Established Member
Nothing wrong with the unit. Just the Sunday shenanigans of lack of train crew to operate it
REVUpminster
Established Member
It did manage one trip and back to Newquay
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Taxis in place of the 175 today!
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Looks like 175006 retired to Exeter depot.
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BillStampy
Established Member
175003 is on mainline 2E11 1050 PNZ - EXD
175006 is currently working 5Z24 1138 PLY - EXD
REVUpminster
Established Member
I was reading ahead 5Z25 was cancelled and the train has disappeared.
RPI
Established Member
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By "busy train", I'm assuming you mean the 07:22 departure from Barny? Which isn't that busy with the college off. This being short formed will also mean that the Axminster is likely to be cancelled tonight.
TastyMaltesers
Member
Snow1964
Established Member
It starting to feel like this appears somewhere on GWR multiple times per week, ie lot more days than not.
Stretching the definition of usual. What they really mean is the over-allocate stock and can't maintain / repair it fast enough on majority of days
These are not shortforms. There are now booked 2 car services unfortunately
REVUpminster
Established Member
That's a very mute point. Is it to satisfy some performance figures that don't apply if 2 car trains are the norm?
175s have already contributed to less capacity figures when replacing the HSTs
I have always been supportive, in my opinions and comments, that the GWR maintenance teams will get a grip of the 175s but without any on the ground experience and knowledge to help and assist them I feel that this has been a major minus factor of why availability and reliability has been so poor and appears deteriorating and I do appreciate that the storage has probably been a decisive factor also. I do feel for the maintenance staff as they can`t do it on their own initially.
Mr Hopwood mentions in his Radio Cornwall interview that they have a recovery plan in place which includes assistance from the manufacturer, Alstom, but I doubt whether there is anyone left within Alstom that have any day to day experience of keeping 175s on the road apart from one person I can think of and if he is still working for them ?
Mr Hopwood mentions in his Radio Cornwall interview that they have a recovery plan in place which includes assistance from the manufacturer, Alstom, but I doubt whether there is anyone left within Alstom that have any day to day experience of keeping 175s on the road apart from one person I can think of and if he is still working for them ?
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Not quite. We no longer have 5 daily passenger 175 diagrams per say. The diagrams are now booked to be covered by a 150 (short term). Note, we still have some 175 diagrams, just not 5. As a result, the unit diagrams have been moved from Devon Metro services.
In simple terms, a 4 car on the devon metro involves 2 unit diagrams (as its 2 units joined together). One of the unit diagrams has been removed and moved to cover a 175 diagram. As a result, the 'booked' diagram on a devon metro service is then technically a 2 car.
Currently, the plan is:
2C05, 2E11, 2C32 and 2E28 are 175
2C00, 2E06, 2C20, 2P20, 2E04, 2C18, 2P17, 2C31 and 2P27 are 150
2C11, 2P16, 2C26 and 2P21 are cancelled due to no stock
RUK
Member
What is the long-term plan for the services that the Class 175s are meant to be covering? As I seem to remember, they were meant to be an interim solution to replace the Castle HSTs, enabling IETs to go back to Inter-City services? So does Project Churchward include ordering enough units to cover the services that Class 175s are doing now, so that they don’t have to stay with GWR long-term? Units from Project Churchward are still years away though, given that a contract hasn’t even been awarded yet.
Snow1964
Established Member
The split of Cardiff - Plymouth - Penzance at Exeter was supposed to be temporary to expedite training and introduction. But now doesn't seem to be any plan to use 175s north of Exeter towards Taunton, Bristol etc. it is currently unclear which services will serve the new Somerset stations as obviously some passengers from them will want to go towards the coast without changing at Exeter.
Project Churchward seems to have gone into the DfT black hole, and just keeps disappearing towards some mythical later date. The latest seems to be no new trains until 2031-2034
Very little has been heard of project Churchward in last 2 years, originally it would have covered all the diesel trains (150, 158, 165, 166) with option to also replace 387s. That is version that still appears on DfT procurement pipeline spreadsheet. It doesn't actually list the diesel classes, just says all and 175s are now part of the total. The replace the 387 option seems to be based on new EMUs and BEMUs which could couple together. That would allow say a combined unit to Newbury with part going forward to Bedwyn etc (example, not a timetable commitment)
Lot of speculation that 175s will stay, and other speculation that says everything will get replaced, so anyone's guess at the moment. Looks like a BEMU is proposed as standard solution, but clearly Devon and Cornwall don't have any electrification so they might be a stand alone area, hence the confusion and two schools of thought.
What is known is Lord Hendy is supposed to publish a 15-30 year rolling stock strategy sometime before Christmas, so presumably all decisions are on hold until that comes out.
No stock? Aren’t we supposed to say ‘more units than usual needing repairs’?
Snow1964
Established Member
No because Usual is defined as normally or most of the timeNo stock? Aren’t we supposed to say ‘more units than usual needing repairs’?
It is actually unusual when most are not needing repairs
RPI
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I don't believe this was ever the plan?
REVUpminster
Established Member
2C05, 2E11, 2C32 and 2E28 are 175. This is one diagram being covered by 175003 today. The only 175 out today?
The Devon Metro doesn't exist. It's just an aspiration of the soon to be defunct Devon County Council. GWR have never advertised it as such because an hourly service isn't "metro".
On wikipedia which I often frequent a map of the Devon metro is shown but this is a creation of a contributor which should be disregarded as original work. The DCC map included Gunnislake.
2F07 Paignton is back to four car today so only one shortform plus the one from Barnstaple.
RPI
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Staff and management refer to it as the Devon Metro, that's good enough for me.
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That's what I thought, as it would be difficult to recover a failed unit going east.
Express380
Member
Somehow in Cornwall they think an hourly service is "Metro".
Apedlar12
Member
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- 815
Has Newquay also gone over to 150 operation for the time being as that is what it looks like for today?
Although it appears that 2C00/2E06/2C20/2P20 has been cancelled today, whereas that wasn't yesterday and Newquay was instead.
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REVUpminster
Established Member
2C05, 2E11, 2C32 and 2E28 are 175. That is really misleading. It is one diagram so only one 175 used daily. Even the training train did not run today. One train out of 16 175s is the worst availability ever. Nothing from Wolverton since 23 June which is nearly two months.
1. Devon Metro is a term used to describe services around the Exeter area. Its used by many people. It may never have been advertised as a metro but if people know what is meant by the 'devon metro' (which I'm sure people on here do) then its clearly a term used and we can't just hide away and say it doesnt exist!
2. Yes, 175003 is the only unit out in passenger traffic at the moment, hence it is the mainstay on 2C05, 2E11, 2C32 and 2E28
3. Newquay has moved over to 150 operation now, with the 175 having been moved to mainline duties. That is until the altered diagrams came into force this week.
4. The 150 fleet is now being stretched more than ever, with 150s also needing heavy maintenance so we need to be realistic as to what will and wont run. Services will be cancelled because there arent physically enough trains to run the service. Note - Bristol are also in a similar situation so its not as easy as just robbing a train from Bristol to help down here
5. 2F07 is booked a 2 car again today, was only a 4 car due to unit restrictions. As said previously, there are no booked 4 car formations in Devon anymore (at the moment anyway). So technically no shortforms today, but 1 overform on 2F07 and the subsequent services.
2. Yes, 175003 is the only unit out in passenger traffic at the moment, hence it is the mainstay on 2C05, 2E11, 2C32 and 2E28
3. Newquay has moved over to 150 operation now, with the 175 having been moved to mainline duties. That is until the altered diagrams came into force this week.
4. The 150 fleet is now being stretched more than ever, with 150s also needing heavy maintenance so we need to be realistic as to what will and wont run. Services will be cancelled because there arent physically enough trains to run the service. Note - Bristol are also in a similar situation so its not as easy as just robbing a train from Bristol to help down here
5. 2F07 is booked a 2 car again today, was only a 4 car due to unit restrictions. As said previously, there are no booked 4 car formations in Devon anymore (at the moment anyway). So technically no shortforms today, but 1 overform on 2F07 and the subsequent services.
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REVUpminster
Established Member
Overform. I'm sure customers will love that term. "GWR apologise that your train has 4 coaches instead of the planned two."
How many 175s does it take to do one diagram?
How many 175s does it take to do one diagram?
Overformed trains are not always a good thing... This scenario is imaginary but can be used to explain the point:
A train Exeter to Plymouth is booked to be a 4 car turbo. This is great as all coaches fit on every platform it is due to call at. One day, it is a 5 car turbo due to a shortage of 2 car turbos (it ends up being a 2 and 3 car joined together). Now the train doesnt fit at all stations its booked to call at. This will mean one unit has to be locked out of use. Now a 5 car train is running around with only one unit open, so the train only actually has 2 or 3 coaches depending on which unit is leading, instead of the booked 4. This is why its imperative to try to ensure trains are correctly formed.
Yes, it doesnt matter in the 2F07 scenario as we know 4 car 150s fit everywhere, but in today's case, because that was a 4 car, another diagram (2C00, 2E06, 2C20 and 2P20) didnt have a unit so ended up cancelled. And infact, if one of the units on that 4 car formation wasnt restricted to being 'Multi-Only' then that diagram would have been a 2 car, with the other unit having filled the uncovered diagram.
Going back to 175s, it's one unit per diagram. A unit diagram is a mix of numbers and letters - when a unit is allocated to that diagram, it works out what trains it's going to be running, how much fuel will be used and exam miles. All of the 175 diagrams are booked as single sets (bar 3E05 and 5P28 which have 2 unit diagrams on them). Some of the 175 diagrams are 3 car diagrams, some are 2 car diagrams. Controllers will know which is which but often the units that are available are just put onto the service to ensure that they run. Sometimes we get 3 cars on 2 car diagrams and vice versa, not very often but it does happen.
A train Exeter to Plymouth is booked to be a 4 car turbo. This is great as all coaches fit on every platform it is due to call at. One day, it is a 5 car turbo due to a shortage of 2 car turbos (it ends up being a 2 and 3 car joined together). Now the train doesnt fit at all stations its booked to call at. This will mean one unit has to be locked out of use. Now a 5 car train is running around with only one unit open, so the train only actually has 2 or 3 coaches depending on which unit is leading, instead of the booked 4. This is why its imperative to try to ensure trains are correctly formed.
Yes, it doesnt matter in the 2F07 scenario as we know 4 car 150s fit everywhere, but in today's case, because that was a 4 car, another diagram (2C00, 2E06, 2C20 and 2P20) didnt have a unit so ended up cancelled. And infact, if one of the units on that 4 car formation wasnt restricted to being 'Multi-Only' then that diagram would have been a 2 car, with the other unit having filled the uncovered diagram.
Going back to 175s, it's one unit per diagram. A unit diagram is a mix of numbers and letters - when a unit is allocated to that diagram, it works out what trains it's going to be running, how much fuel will be used and exam miles. All of the 175 diagrams are booked as single sets (bar 3E05 and 5P28 which have 2 unit diagrams on them). Some of the 175 diagrams are 3 car diagrams, some are 2 car diagrams. Controllers will know which is which but often the units that are available are just put onto the service to ensure that they run. Sometimes we get 3 cars on 2 car diagrams and vice versa, not very often but it does happen.