Class 175 future speculation

[Neptune]

I use one every Sunday! It's quite frequent I sit in a seat with a non working plug socket.
As for the seat covering, I concede I didn't know about that.

So you use a 195 every Sunday but haven’t noticed that the old stained flat cloth seat covers have been replaced by much cleaner and smarter looking moquette for quite some time now?

 

[AlastairFraser]

So you use a 195 every Sunday but haven’t noticed that the old stained flat cloth seat covers have been replaced by much cleaner and smarter looking moquette for quite some time now?

Most of the services are so rammed, I don't see the seat covers as there are usually people on top of them!

 

[Neptune]

Most of the services are so rammed, I don't see the seat covers as there are usually people on top of them!

So you either haven’t noticed the seat you’re sat on or if you’re standing how have you managed to use the plug sockets?

 

[AlastairFraser]

So you either haven’t noticed the seat you’re sat on or if you’re standing how have you managed to use the plug sockets?

Asked someone to plug it for me

 

[yorkie]

Can we try to stick to the topic Class 175 future speculation please, thanks

If anyone wants to discuss any other topic not directly related, feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already), and link to it from here.

 

[Philip]

Now that 175002 is off lease and could end up in storage potentially anywhere, was wondering if the 175s are still cleared to run on all of the 'North West' routes which they last worked in 2006? Particularly the Manchester-Blackpool corridor, in view of the infrastructure changes which have taken place because of electrification/re-modelling of the Chorley arches etc, would a new route clearing test be required before they could these lines again at normal line speed?

 

[Neptune]

Now that 175002 is off lease and could end up in storage potentially anywhere, was wondering if the 175s are still cleared to run on all of the 'North West' routes which they last worked in 2006? Particularly the Manchester-Blackpool corridor, in view of the infrastructure changes which have taken place because of electrification/re-modelling of the Chorley arches etc, would a new route clearing test be required before they could these lines again at normal line speed?

This old chestnut again.

 

[Philip]

This old chestnut again.

Not sure what your problem is, I was simply asking if the original class 175 clearance of these routes from the year 2000 is still valid in case one was planned to run along any of these lines now, whether it's for passenger service or moving to a storage facility or to York NRM or wherever, given that it's over 15 years since they last went this way.

 

[zwk500]

Not sure what your problem is, I was simply asking if the original class 175 clearance of these routes from the year 2000 is still valid if one was planned to run along any of these lines now, whether it's for passenger service or moving to a storage facility, given that it's over 15 years since they last went this way.

If they were in the Sectional Appendix then in theory any changes should accommodate them. However they may also have been taken out. If they aren't in the Appendix then they'll need a temporary clearance, which may or may not include restrictions.

 

[Neptune]

Not sure what your problem is, I was simply asking if the original class 175 clearance of these routes from the year 2000 is still valid in case one was planned to run along any of these lines now, whether it's for passenger service or moving to a storage facility or to York NRM or wherever, given that it's over 15 years since they last went this way.

I’m guessing it’s leading to yet another round of ‘send the 175’s to Northern just because they were there many many years ago’. I’ll be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Philip]

If they were in the Sectional Appendix then in theory any changes should accommodate them. However they may also have been taken out. If they aren't in the Appendix then they'll need a temporary clearance, which may or may not include restrictions.

Thanks

I’m guessing it’s leading to yet another round of ‘send the 175’s to Northern just because they were there many many years ago’. I’ll be happy to be proved wrong.

A year ago Northern seemed like a very possible candidate for future operations, now it seems unlikely for various reasons. However they could still potentially be used for some railtours if they don't go to another TOC and as mentioned some may end up in storage in the east or at the NRM, so clearance on old routes could still come into question.

 

[Neptune]

A year ago Northern seemed like a very possible candidate for future operations,

According to whom?

now it seems unlikely for various reasons.

Correct

However they could still potentially be used for some railtours

Really? According to whom?

if they don't go to another TOC and as mentioned some may end up in storage in the east or at the NRM, so clearance on old routes could still come into question.

Manchester to Blackpool via Chorley isn’t a route to the east.

 

[zwk500]

A year ago Northern seemed like a very possible candidate for future operations, now it seems unlikely for various reasons. However they could still potentially be used for some railtours if they don't go to another TOC and as mentioned some may end up in storage in the east or at the NRM, so clearance on old routes could still come into question.

On this point - no, they won't. There's very little historic interest in a 100mph regional DMU and no charter operator will want 2-car units. If there's no work for them with Regular TOCs they'll be on a one-way trip to Newport or Rotherham.
Clearance is a relatively simple procedure if a TOC wants to get them cleared.

 

[Philip]

According to whom?

Some traincrew if you believe reports on here, plus the fact that Northern said last year that they wanted to scrap their Sprinters by the end of the decade.

Correct

Really? According to whom?

Manchester to Blackpool via Chorley isn’t a route to the east.

If one was to go to the NRM then via Chorley, Preston (or via Darwen) and East Lancashire/Calder Valley would be a possible route.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Could they replace a 156 allocation at a particular depot? Would be ridiculous to let them go to waste - unless the corrosion issues are worse than we know…

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Could they replace a 156 allocation at a particular depot? Would be ridiculous to let them go to waste - unless the corrosion issues are worse than we know…

Which 156s at which depot with which TOC that wants to take them (and the maintenance) on?

 

[Neptune]

Some traincrew if you believe reports on here,

No I don’t

plus the fact that Northern said last year that they wanted to scrap their Sprinters by the end of the decade.

When were 175’s ever mentioned?

If one was to go to the NRM then via Chorley, Preston (or via Darwen) and East Lancashire/Calder Valley would be a possible route.

Or direct via Copy Pit or Standedge as they would still need clearing anyway east of the Pennines.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Which 156s at which depot with which TOC that wants to take them (and the maintenance) on?

I’m not sure who would - I was simply floating it as an idea…

But from a passenger experience perspective, letting 80s stock continue to trundle around whilst air conditioned post privatisation stock is available is madness.

 

[zwk500]

Could they replace a 156 allocation at a particular depot? Would be ridiculous to let them go to waste - unless the corrosion issues are worse than we know…

Is it more ridiculous to scrap them slightly early or to use trains on routes they aren't suited to purely to avoid scrapping trains a handful of people happen to like because they've got doors in a different position?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Is it more ridiculous to scrap them slightly early or to use trains on routes they aren't suited to purely to avoid scrapping trains a handful of people happen to like because they've got doors in a different position?

Personally, I don’t really care about the doors!

But it’s not ‘slightly’ early - they still have at least 10 years left in them. They’re better quality units, can work stoppers as well as expresses, and they have all the mod cons which should be for granted these days.

It’s right that they shouldn’t be sent somewhere and split up - but if there’s a depot with a 156/158 allocation which could be cascaded, it’d be pretty daft not to in my opinion. Maintenance could be simplified, and driver training most likely be the main barrier.

If we’re running around 30+ year old 156s whilst scrapping units that are 10 years younger and better equipped, it’s a sad reflection on the railway.

 

[JonathanH]

If we’re running around 30+ year old 156s whilst scrapping units that are 10 years younger and better equipped, it’s a sad reflection on the railway.

If we are expecting 156s to be replaced in 10 years by something better than a 175 anyway, there isn't really much difference. Right now, the staff training needed to offer 175s a new home is likely to be unaffordable, no matter how much better for passengers the accommodation might be.

Quite how the railway is going to be able to afford sprinter replacement and staff training at the end of the decade is a total mystery.

 

[Philip]

When were 175’s ever mentioned?

They have been an obvious replacement option for years, particularly for 155s and 156s, and they're probably more suited to limited stop Manchester-Cumbria services than 195s. The corrosion problem and the cost of repair is obviously a big obstacle when combined with the cost of staff training.

 

[zwk500]

If we’re running around 30+ year old 156s whilst scrapping units that are 10 years younger and better equipped, it’s a sad reflection on the railway.

156s have more seats and can work in multiple with more classes. There's also only 27 Class 175s, so you would be creating a subfleet for 25mph benefit, mostly on routes that can't make very good use of speeds above 80mph.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If we are expecting 156s to be replaced in 10 years by something better than a 175 anyway, there isn't really much difference. Right now, the staff training needed to offer 175s a new home is likely to be unaffordable, no matter how much better for passengers the accommodation might be.

The step up from a 15x to new stock is far greater than that from a 175 to new stock. Indeed, if you put some of the flashy PIS screens in few would probably notice any difference!

How are the 175 running costs in comparison to 15x? Surely there would be potential for maintenance savings to cover the cost of training.

They have been an obvious replacement option for years, particularly for 155s and 156s, and they're probably more suited to limited stop Manchester-Cumbria services than 195s. The corrosion problem and the cost of repair is obviously a big obstacle when combined with the cost of staff training.

Manchester - Cumbria wouldn’t be suited for 175s these days. It’s a Bolton corridor commuter service bolted on to a ‘local train for local people’ north of Preston - that just so happens to have long distance traffic. The passenger turnover at Lancaster and Preston would make end doors a struggle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2023 ==

156s have more seats and can work in multiple with more classes. There's also only 27 Class 175s, so you would be creating a subfleet for 25mph benefit, mostly on routes that can't make very good use of speeds above 80mph.

There are three car units available though which would result in an increase of seats.

My main point is being missed though - from what the passengers expect from the modern railway, the 175 delivers and the 156 fleet doesn’t, even after the refurb. You can almost hear the sigh when a 156 turns up on a Cumbria service rather than a 195.

 

[skyhigh]

They have been an obvious replacement option for years, particularly for 155s and 156s

To you, maybe. To anyone else no!

If one was to go to the NRM then via Chorley, Preston (or via Darwen) and East Lancashire/Calder Valley would be a possible route.

In the unlikely event the NRM would want a single DMU with no particular historical value I imagine it would go there by road.

 

[zwk500]

There are three car units available though which would result in an increase of seats.

My main point is being missed though - from what the passengers expect from the modern railway, the 175 delivers and the 156 fleet doesn’t, even after the refurb. You can almost hear the sigh when a 156 turns up on a Cumbria service rather than a 195.

I bet it's cheaper to fit USB sockets to 156s than to operate a split fleet - Northern currently have 56 156s, so the 26 175s can't even cover half the diagrams. You'll be needing c.30 156s anyway, so why not fit all of them with plugs and USBs and Wifi etc and take the savings of a common fleet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Could they replace a 156 allocation at a particular depot? Would be ridiculous to let them go to waste - unless the corrosion issues are worse than we know…

Is it more ridiculous to scrap them slightly early or to use trains on routes they aren't suited to purely to avoid scrapping trains a handful of people happen to like because they've got doors in a different position?

Door positions don't really come into an argument of 175 vs 156 though do they? So you have:

Feature/Stat.	Class 156​	Class 175​
Entered service	1988​	2000​
Age in 2023	35​	23​
40th 'birthday'	2028​	2040​
Toilets	1 per unit​	1 per coach​
Airline Seat Spacing	? (maybe 80cm) ?​	84cm (best in UK?)​
Air Conditioning	No​	Yes​
Unit End Gangways	Yes​	No​
Top Speed	75mph​	100mph​

Anyone care to add to that? The age difference has got to be a consideration, surely?

If we are expecting 156s to be replaced in 10 years by something better than a 175 anyway, there isn't really much difference. Right now, the staff training needed to offer 175s a new home is likely to be unaffordable, no matter how much better for passengers the accommodation might be.

Quite how the railway is going to be able to afford sprinter replacement and staff training at the end of the decade is a total mystery.

Quite simply, I'm not expecting the 156s to be replaced by something better within 10 years. Sadly the current picture of limited electrification and financial constraint seems unlikely to change significantly by the time any such fleet is ordered. I fear we are likely to end up with more Civity DMUs with ironing board seats and associated reduced scope for making use of the electrification we do have. Quite frankly I would rather the 15x fleets (except the 150/1s if a way can be found to ensure their replacements are electrification-compatible) were stretched to 50 years in service than allow that to happen. The extra 10-12 years life that the 175s provide (potentially, depending on how bad the reported corrosion really is) would get us to 2040, by which time hopefully the tables will have turned both on electrification and passenger comfort.

I bet it's cheaper to fit USB sockets to 156s than to operate a split fleet

Maybe, but they still wouldn't have air-conditioning and would it even be possible to fit (working) sockets anyway? As I understand it, the TfW 158s have power sockets only at tables because there isn't enough power available to charge everybody's laptops and engines on a class 156 produce 130 fewer horsepowers than those on a TfW class 158. Admittedly the 158s do have a higher top speed and air-conditioning, so the unit's power demand is higher than on a 156, but is there much spare power on a 156 for anything else?

Northern currently have 56 156s, so the 26 175s can't even cover half the diagrams. You'll be needing c.30 156s anyway

True, and they also have too many 150s (which I would prioritise for withdrawal ahead of 156s) for the 175s to replace the lot. However, they also have the York - Blackpool North service (and probably other routes like it) being worked (if today on RealTimeTrains is anything to go by) by class 195s. Get those 195s off routes like that and use those 195s in the places the 150s are currently 'needed' so that some 150s can be ditched.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I bet it's cheaper to fit USB sockets to 156s than to operate a split fleet - Northern currently have 56 156s, so the 26 175s can't even cover half the diagrams. You'll be needing c.30 156s anyway, so why not fit all of them with plugs and USBs and Wifi etc and take the savings of a common fleet.

Northern 156s already have USB sockets as far as I’m aware - but no plug sockets which may need a significant electrical upgrade.

Plus, there’s the fact that Northern, even nearly 20 years on, is basically 2 TOCs merged together. You could introduce 175s on either side of the Pennines and leave it the same on the other. I suspect the North West would have less diagrams with the more extensive electrification, plus the 3 cars would be more use.

Other than the cost (which is the sticking point!) and lack of gangways (which Northern has shown it doesn’t really care about with the 195s) there’s no real good reason why they aren’t a good 156 replacement!

 

[AlastairFraser]

True, and they also have too many 150s (which I would prioritise for withdrawal ahead of 156s) for the 175s to replace the lot. However, they also have the York - Blackpool North service (and probably other routes like it) being worked (if today on RealTimeTrains is anything to go by) by class 195s. Get those 195s off routes like that and use those 195s in the places the 150s are currently 'needed' so that some 150s can be ditched.

Precisely, the 150s deserve the scrapyard. And yes, the 195s do nearly always work York-Blackpool North, I sometimes commute on this line.

 

[liamf656]

With the state the Adelantes are in now, is it not inevitable that the 175/180 fleets will both be scrapped before 150s?? This thread just seems to be stuck on an endless loop of suggestions on them going to either Northern or Chiltern during a time where the DFT is so persistent on cost cutting.

RE Northern. It’s been mentioned but why would we be adding yet another fleet to its allocation? It’s already got the biggest variety in the country so to add yet another would be difficult to justify. Granted the Sprinters won’t last forever however the cheapest thing to do is to keep what they have for now and get more 158s if available, as the cost in training would be lower. Let’s face it, they’ll last longer than 175s anyway. Brand new stock would be better longer term, and loosely thinking I’d even suggest they wait for when more 170s are up for grabs. They’d be perfect for Leeds to Notts/Lincoln and Hull to Halifax/York. That’s without even mentioning any future electrification. Do the TFW 158s have a future? If not then it’s a no brained that these are used to replace the 155s and the worst of the 156s.

RE EMR. There’s no need for them to take on any 175s. The planned allocation of 158/170 should work okay and as I mentioned there’s no need to spend so much money on taking on a fleet that wouldn’t last as long as the 158 anyway

RE Chiltern. The target audience for this operator is the commuter. It’s a slow route and the 165/168s work perfectly to my knowledge (unless someone can say otherwise). I doubt the loco hauled sets will have a short term replacement, but ideally they’d be better off with a unit that’s futureproof; something that’s good for todays infrastructure but also easily convertible for electrification if/when it happens. Getting my crayons out, but if CAF did a bi-mode Civity with gangways we’d be laughing

RE Crosscountry. Again the 170s are only worth replacing if the new stock is suited to the route and preferably brand new. The work they do has very specific demands and can’t warrant an intercity train but also can’t use commuter stock. The 175 wouldn’t fit with the criteria.

And before we go down anymore routes regarding Southern, Merseyrail, or even C2C, it’s needless to say really! As much as I like the Adelante, there just isn’t the need for them anymore. They’re expensive to run compared to similar stock, it wouldn’t be worth the training or the extra train type wherever they go, especially overseas, and I sincerely doubt they’ll outlive a Sprinter no matter how hard people hope