Class 175 and 185 possible future operators

[Bletchleyite]

They'd probably not be big enough now, even back then the 2-cars got snug, especially from Lancaster southbound

There's plenty of them, so they could be used in 4 and 5-car formations, providing more capacity than the 195s do!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Of course they have been before - they were ordered by First North Western, and as well as in North Wales they used to operate the former NorthWest Express services to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere from Manchester Airport. They could easily go there again, though other non-Castlefield express services may be a better choice (and Blackpool of course would now use EMUs anyway).

As I understand it they were never route-cleared East of Manchester and the Bolton route (for example they never subbed onto the Victoria to Wakefield service or the Hope Valley stoppers AFAIK) so if they were to move to Heaton or Crofton (depots with a team of "Alstom-whisperers" ) they'd need gauge-clearing. That's obviously not a show-stopper but no doubt someone will mention it if I don't.

 

[Philip]

As I understand it they were never route-cleared East of Manchester and the Bolton route (for example they never subbed onto the Victoria to Wakefield service or the Hope Valley stoppers AFAIK) so if they were to move to Heaton or Crofton (depots with a team of "Alstom-whisperers" ) they'd need gauge-clearing. That's obviously not a show-stopper but no doubt someone will mention it if I don't.

The platforms may need shaving, I believe this was the case with some stations when first introduced.

 

[Meerkat]

So could the 175s work out of Leeds to Blackpool, Carlisle, Chester and Nottingham?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So could the 175s work out of Leeds to Blackpool, Carlisle, Chester and Nottingham?

Do those all go via Manchester Victoria rather than Castlefield? If so, yes, they're good options (subject to any platform pruning).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do those all go via Manchester Victoria rather than Castlefield? If so, yes, they're good options (subject to any platform pruning).

They don't go near Manchester at all apart from the Chester service (which does go via Victoria).
If the 175s were to go to Northern, ideally you'd want to put them somewhere where they could operate an entire service group (as they can't work with other DMUs) so I'd be looking at somewhere like the North East in place of their 158s.

 

[317 forever]

Of course they have been before - they were ordered by First North Western, and as well as in North Wales they used to operate the former NorthWest Express services to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere from Manchester Airport. They could easily go there again, though other non-Castlefield express services may be a better choice (and Blackpool of course would now use EMUs anyway).

In that case, 175s could come back to Manchester - Barrow/Windermere routes, releasing 195s to the Leeds & Hull area (apologies for not knowing all the depots) and thus the 170s to EMR for the Nottingham - Liverpool service.

 

[NoMorePacers]

In that case, 175s could come back to Manchester - Barrow/Windermere routes, releasing 195s to the Leeds & Hull area (apologies for not knowing all the depots) and thus the 170s to EMR for the Nottingham - Liverpool service.

195s wouldn't really work on services around Hull due to their inability to hit SP speeds (at least as far as I know - I'm more than happy to be corrected if wrong). You'd be better off cascading the 195s to replace more Sprinters which would go and replace the 170s in that situation (not that losing the 170s would be ideal - but if needs must I suppose).

 

[DorkingMain]

Best case scenario is the 185s (with their huge weight issue) end up working the Nottingham - Liverpool under EMR as was planned under TPE.

175s are obviously slightly more versatile. I suspect in the long term the choice might be made to retain at least some of them at TfW - the number of 197s ordered seems to be tight and it would allow strengthening of a lot of services.

 

[Neptune]

Why are people so obsessed with Northern getting rid of the 170’s.

 

[DB]

How heavy is each 185 vehicle?

 

[Whistler40145]

Would 175s be useful for Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield stopping service

 

[tbtc]

Why are people so obsessed with Northern getting rid of the 170’s.

I can't speak for everyone else but the (sixteen?) Northern 170s aren't particularly suited to slow stoppers, but Northern doesn't have a lot of routes where they can stretch their legs a bit (since the "flagship" routes are to be in the hands of the 195s)... so what do they do with them?

Whereas, EMR have barely enough Turbostars to meet their requirements, the Nottingham - Liverpool service is to be retained by EMR (?), it might make sense to have the 170s go to EMR to run the Liverpool service and bolster their "local" services.

So I can see the logic of...

Nottingham - Liverpool - Nottingham is around a six hour round trip...

...So a dozen units required to provide a six coach DMU...

...Add on a handful of units to cover for maintenance etc...

...comes up with the number of units that Northern have (possibly with one of two "spare" to be used to improve the tightly planned number of 170s that EMR think will be sufficient to run their "local" services)...

...meanwhile EMR have about a couple of dozen 158s at the moment which could be more useful in a big fleet alongside the existing fiftyish SuperSprinters that Northern already operate (compared to having a smaller non-standard feet of Turbostars).

I'm not saying that 170s to EMR is my ideal solution, but it certainly seems pretty logical (keeping larger compatible fleets together, rather than having 100mph trains struggling to meet the stop/start timings of Northern's stoppers)

If the 175s were to go to Northern, ideally you'd want to put them somewhere where they could operate an entire service group (as they can't work with other DMUs) so I'd be looking at somewhere like the North East in place of their 158s.

That makes sense to me - do you know how the (twenty seven?) 175 fleet compares to the number of Heaton DMUs? Would be a nice fit if the numbers matched.

 

[NoMorePacers]

That makes sense to me - do you know how the (twenty seven?) 175 fleet compares to the number of Heaton DMUs? Would be a nice fit if the numbers matched.

It appears as though 16 158s and 30 156s are based at Heaton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't speak for everyone else but the (sixteen?) Northern 170s aren't particularly suited to slow stoppers, but Northern doesn't have a lot of routes where they can stretch their legs a bit (since the "flagship" routes are to be in the hands of the 195s)... so what do they do with them?

Forget the idea of having 195s on express routes and use the express units (170s) on the express routes and 195s on stoppers would be a good start.

 

[DorkingMain]

I was surprised the original batch of 170s went to Northern instead of EMR where they could have pushed some 158s to Northern. EMR have more routes where the Turbostars would be suited.

A friend who is traincrew for Northern reckons the 170s are completely mismatched to the work they are on and are throwing up increased reliability / wear issues because they are not designed for stopping every couple of minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A friend who is traincrew for Northern reckons the 170s are completely mismatched to the work they are on and are throwing up increased reliability / wear issues because they are not designed for stopping every couple of minutes.

I believe this is correct. Yet Northern have units (195s) which would be ideal for those stopping services and might well even allow timetable improvements. Yet they doggedly stick to the idea that they're express units. Get something else in for the expresses (getting on topic, 175s would do) and get the 195s on the stopping services, like WMT did with 172s.

 

[DorkingMain]

185s wouldn't be awful for express services either - they're "quality" units and they have route clearance on most of the Northern express routes anyway (via TPE)

 

[The Planner]

How heavy is each 185 vehicle?

168t total, so presumably 56t each.

 

[DB]

168t total, so presumably 56t each.

Yes, that is heavy! About 10 tons per vehicle heavier thana a 220 (46t as I recall).

Given that the two classes have the same engines, although different transmission, I wonder what accounts for that 10 tons?

 

[Nym]

Bogies, larger bodies.

 

[DorkingMain]

Desiros are notoriously a heavy family of units.

 

[Dspatula]

If there’s no change to depots I’d probably go with transferring Barrow, Windermere and Liverpool to Manchester Airport to TPE and keeping the all the 185s with them. I think there’s 13 diagrams between the routes so might be a little tight for 15 units, although I’m assuming both the routes and TPE will still exist in the future.

I’d put the 175s on Manchester Piccadilly to Marple, Buxton and Chester routes which I think would be about 18 diagrams, it would keep training to just Piccadilly and Buxton. This assumes they can be cleared for Buxton, I’ll admit are not the best routes for the type of unit and this might not be as simple a plan as I’m assuming. Otherwise I’d probably put them Calder valley, Chester to Leeds, Vic to Leeds and Wigan to Leeds could actually get some use out of the 5 car platform extensions.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The 185s will mostly be staying with TPE. Any spares may as well go to Northern. Siemens will want to keep them near York and Ardwick.

Whereas, EMR have barely enough Turbostars to meet their requirements, the Nottingham - Liverpool service is to be retained by EMR (?), it might make sense to have the 170s go to EMR to run the Liverpool service and bolster their "local" services.

A friend who is traincrew for Northern reckons the 170s are completely mismatched to the work they are on and are throwing up increased reliability / wear issues because they are not designed for stopping every couple of minutes.

Im certainly not keen to get rid of the 170's but I can't help but wonder if the most sensible solution is to use the 185's to replace Northern's 170s ?

Since the Harrogate Line is stop/start throughout its entire length it may be best to get the 170's of it? Apart from this ideally 2, 3 car sets should really be running in the peaks at least splitting at Harrogate. (Obviously this would require platform lengthening) It is a busy line and from my knoweldge one of the most successful lines after the Aire & Wharf Valley lines. To do this with 170's would be near enough impossible since they're just isn't enough.

Added benefit: you could run them straight through York if you wanted to one day in a giant circuit.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Im certainly not keen to get rid of the 170's but I can't help but wonder if the most sensible solution is to use the 185's to replace Northern's 170s ?

Since the Harrogate Line is stop/start throughout its entire length it may be best to get the 170's of it? Apart from this ideally 2, 3 car sets should really be running in the peaks at least splitting at Harrogate. (Obviously this would require platform lengthening) It is a busy line and from my knoweldge one of the most successful lines after the Aire & Wharf Valley lines. To do this with 170's would be near enough impossible since they're just isn't enough.

Added benefit: you could run them straight through York if you wanted to one day in a giant circuit.

185s could work fairly well on Harrogate duties but not so much on Hull duties I think.