Class 175 and 185 possible future operators

[Philip]

Just wondering of any likely or good potential new operators of the 27 class 175s and 15 class 185s due to go off lease in the next year or two?

 

[HST43257]

Just wondering of any likely or good potential new operators of the 27 class 175s and 15 class 185s due to go off lease in the next year or two?

I reckon you could put 185s on the West Highland Line, with 175s maybe doing some sort of regional express workings like Scarborough to Sheffield and Morpeth to Carlisle.

 

[30907]

The search engine produces two recent threads on the 185s, I doubt there is anything new to add.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-class-185s-go-after-they-are-retired.202447/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-185-cascade-suggestions.191478/
Searching for Class 175 doesn't produce anything (which surprises me). However, the obvious issue is that Chester have built up expertise in keeping the sets going, and it would be difficult to justify the expense of replicating that elsewhere.
I like them, and would love to see them on the Settle and Carlisle (for example) but really they would need to be within reach of Chester.

 

[JonathanH]

However, the obvious issue is that Chester have built up expertise in keeping the sets going, and it would be difficult to justify the expense of replicating that elsewhere.

Crofton and Heaton have experience of 180s which might give them a head start on 175s but it does seem that Chester have to work hard to keep the sets available.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I reckon you could put 185s on the West Highland Line, with 175s maybe doing some sort of regional express workings like Scarborough to Sheffield and Morpeth to Carlisle.

There does seem to be this common problem of forgetting the mass of the Class 185 units and their inability to run to any differential speed limits - they're so heavy that they can only run to the same timings as locomotives (with the occasional exception) - no HST, DMU, EMU or SP differential speeds for them.

That means they'll add 25 minutes to journey times between Craigendoran Junction and Fort William and a further 30 minutes between Fort William and Mallaig.

And it's also ignoring the decision by Transport Scotland to procure zero emission units to operate the WHL, FNL and Kyle routes with some form of either hydrogen bi-mode unit or a battery EMU being the only two options for the WHL.

 

[HST43257]

And it's also ignoring the decision by Transport Scotland to procure zero emission units to operate the WHL, FNL and Kyle routes with some form of either hydrogen bi-mode unit or a battery EMU being the only two options for the WHL.

to be fair, the hydrogen/battery + EMU bimode solution is probably the best one. English and Welsh railways should definitely follow suit. Put the same sort of trains on the Heart of Wales and the Settle+Carlisle Lines Plus maybe others. Unfortunately this would mean an end to the days of mainline DMUs in Britain. Probably for the best, though.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there any economic way to reduce 185 weight? Strip them back to low speed branch line kind of thing?
Otherwise the only thing that can really save them from scrap is if there is a predicted shortage of DMUs up to the ban.
Are there any DMU routes that dont have lots of speed differentials? North Wales Coast (politically difficult)?

 

[raetiamann]

I'd take either for EMR's Nottingham - Liverpool service. The 180s are to be maintained at Etches Park, if that influences anything.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Crofton and Heaton have experience of 180s which might give them a head start on 175s but it does seem that Chester have to work hard to keep the sets available.

Sending the 175s to Crofton would be an absolute recipe for disaster - they'd be better off dumped at Ely or Long Marston in that case.

 

[HST43257]

Sending the 175s to Crofton would be an absolute recipe for disaster.

How so? They’ve got Coradia 1000 experience as mentioned in post #4.

 

[NoMorePacers]

How so? They’ve got Coradia 1000 experience as mentioned in post #4.

The reliability of the Hull Trains 180s dropped off a cliff when they transferred to there from Old Oak Common. I can only imagine the same happening to the 175s if they moved to there from Chester.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The reliability of the Hull Trains 180s dropped off a cliff when they transferred to there from Old Oak Common. I can only imagine the same happening to the 175s if they moved to there from Chester.

The same issues didn't seem to affect the Grand Central units, though they have heavier work done at Heaton I believe. The use of "Crofton" and "dropped" in the same sentence probably brings Hull Trains' fleet managers into a cold sweat, mind!

 

[Clansman]

I reckon you could put 185s on the West Highland Line.

Even getting round the sprinter differentials issue, with the WHL being single track predominantly until stations, services go to Crianlarich from Glasgow as 6 coaches and split such that 4 go to Fort William and Mallaig and 2 to Oban. 185s would not only hinder this, but reduce capacity significantly both in terms of seats (a 3 car 185 has less standard seats than a 156), luggage, and bike space. Complete no go.

 

[Philip]

Looking at the numbers, I'm guessing the most likely option for the remaining 185s is to stay with TPE, so that they have enough stock for adding Liverpool-Nottingham to their routes. Wouldn't be surprised if the Nottingham is then worked by 68/mk5s with 185s covering all Redcar and a couple of Man Airport-Newcastle diagrams, give or take. That way Liverpool crew wouldn't need to retain traction knowledge of 185s.

175s - Scotrail, South West, FGW, Northern, Chiltern?

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the numbers, I'm guessing the most likely option for the remaining 185s is to stay with TPE, so that they have enough stock for adding Liverpool-Nottingham to their routes. Wouldn't be surprised if the Nottingham is then worked by 68/mk5s with 185s covering all Redcar and a couple of Man Airport-Newcastle diagrams, give or take. That way Liverpool crew wouldn't need to retain traction knowledge of 185s.

175s - Scotrail, South West, FGW, Northern, Chiltern?

It has been announced (and extensively discussed on this forum) that TPE aren't taking on Liverpool to Nottingham. Indeed there is a whole thread about what rolling stock might be used (with 185s not indicated to be ideal).

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...erpool-notts-what-stock-could-be-used.208118/

 

[raetiamann]

Would the 185s be able to ride the West Highland line as back in diesel loco days it only had RA5 clearance. There seems to be a consensus on here that they are one of the heavier DMUs on the network.

 

[Whistler40145]

Even getting round the sprinter differentials issue, with the WHL being single track predominantly until stations, services go to Crianlarich from Glasgow as 6 coaches and split such that 4 go to Fort William and Mallaig and 2 to Oban. 185s would not only hinder this, but reduce capacity significantly both in terms of seats (a 3 car 185 has less standard seats than a 156), luggage, and bike space. Complete no go.

I thought ScotRail were going to introduce Class 158s on the West Highland Line

 

[The Planner]

Would the 185s be able to ride the West Highland line as back in diesel loco days it only had RA5 clearance. There seems to be a consensus on here that they are one of the heavier DMUs on the network.

Pretty sure a 185 is RA5.

 

[Whistler40145]

Pretty sure a 185 is RA5.

Would platforms require any work for 185s to work the West Highland Line?

 

[The Planner]

Would platforms require any work for 185s to work the West Highland Line?

No idea, someone would have to stick it through some gauging software.

 

[Whistler40145]

No idea, someone would have to stick it through some gauging software.

My apologies

 

[Bevan Price]

If 175 maintenance is to remain at Chester, the the simplest option would be Northern, starting to displace 150s on Manchester area services, including Manchester - Northwich - Chester.

Next simplest would be East Midland, with 175s working Derby to Crewe services (then e.c.s. to Chester when needing maintenance.)

Other options would either require a new maintenance base, or some very long e.c.s movements to/from Chester.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A controversial idea, but I'd keep the 175s in Wales!

The 185s will mostly be staying with TPE. Any spares may as well go to Northern. Siemens will want to keep them near York and Ardwick.

 

[Meerkat]

If 175 maintenance is to remain at Chester

I thought the TfW CAF units were going to Chester so the 175s will have to leave?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A controversial idea, but I'd keep the 175s in Wales!

The 185s will mostly be staying with TPE. Any spares may as well go to Northern. Siemens will want to keep them near York and Ardwick.

I'm not sure DOR-operated Northern will want the burden of such heavy and thirsty units. It wouldn't surprise me if all the 185s stay with TPE, particularly if they end up operating the proposed third fast service along the Hope Valley.

175s could well end up with Northern, regardless of the Chester depot situation. If there won't be space at Chester moving forward, Crofton or Heaton would be potential alternative homes as both depots seem to have managed to get the 180s to be vaguely reliable. From a passenger point of view the 175s are excellent units, and they'd be ideal for services like Newcastle to Carlisle.

 

[The Planner]

I thought the TfW CAF units were going to Chester so the 175s will have to leave?

That isn't guaranteed apparently, its an option. They need extra space there if they do.

 

[Meerkat]

That isn't guaranteed apparently, its an option. They need extra space there if they do.

Interesting, thanks. Where else can the CAFs go?

 

[Tetchytyke]

175s could well end up with Northern, regardless of the Chester depot situation. If there won't be space at Chester moving forward, Crofton or Heaton would be potential alternative homes

The 175s are lovely trains, I certainly wouldn't complain if they ended up on Northern Connect

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 175s are lovely trains, I certainly wouldn't complain if they ended up on Northern Connect

Of course they have been before - they were ordered by First North Western, and as well as in North Wales they used to operate the former NorthWest Express services to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere from Manchester Airport. They could easily go there again, though other non-Castlefield express services may be a better choice (and Blackpool of course would now use EMUs anyway).

 

[Tetchytyke]

they were ordered by First North Western, and as well as in North Wales they used to operate the former NorthWest Express services to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere from Manchester

They'd probably not be big enough now, even back then the 2-cars got snug, especially from Lancaster southbound. It's a shame the reliability always sucked because internally they are the nicest post-privatisation DMU of the lot.