Class 172 Production Progress

[EM2]

172 005 is back out today, travelled on it from Wanstead Park at 17:45.
Initial impressions:
Quiet, airy, cool, *loads* of space (but I'll be interested to see what it's like in weekday peak), comfortable.
I would guess there's at least 25% more capacity than a 2-car 150.

 

[bnsf734]

I was wondering what the interior was like on the LO 172's

and found this photo:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wZjE0wzLpDA/S3fki2BhutI/AAAAAAAAAAk/A8ONJBh0EtY/s1600-h/class172interior.jpg


Calv

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't realise LM were keeping any 150's?

The original plans were for all of LM's 150s to go elsewhere.

There have been posts in a number of discussion forums suggesting that LM will need to keep a few, possibly for use on particular routes where 172s are supposedly not suitable.

But that's all that's happened as far as I can see, there's no hard evidence out there unless anyone knows different...

 

[GospelOak117]

WTF the 172's have no toilets? (Not that you could use the toilets on a London 150)

Does anyone know if it is just the LO 172's that are toiletless or are the Chiltern and LM units going to be the same?

 

[Fincra5]

The 172s for LO run a very short distance anyway, so there is no need for a toilet, the 378s are the same...

I don;t know whether or not the LM and Chiltern ones will have toilets but I would assume they will.

 

[northwichcat]

But that's all that's happened as far as I can see, there's no hard evidence out there unless anyone knows different...

I think it's the lack of any evidence of where most of the LM 150s are going - only 8 are confirmed as going to Northern and 4 of those are so 156s can be sent from Northern to EMT.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it's the lack of any evidence of where most of the LM 150s are going - only 8 are confirmed as going to Northern and 4 of those are so 156s can be sent from Northern to EMT.

There are 9 units confirmed going to FGW as well.

But those left over could be stored - the lack of a publicised destination doesn't mean they'll stay with LM, expecially in the current DfT micromanaged allocation system, as the 172s replace them.

 

[northwichcat]

There are 9 units confirmed going to FGW as well.

But those left over could be stored - the lack of a publicised destination doesn't mean they'll stay with LM, expecially in the current DfT micromanaged allocation system, as the 172s replace them.

I think the suggestion was LM want 150s to replace their 153s and then cascade the 153s, which also lead to another suggestion that it's partly in the hope that LM get more new DMUs in the next order with the 150s and 142s being the oldest DMUs in operation.

 

[swt_passenger]

it's partly in the hope that LM get more new DMUs in the next order...

Next order? You're having a laugh - the current order was the last DMU order, wasn't it. Everything else from now on is going to be EMUs.

Adonis said this so it must be true...

 

[northwichcat]

Next order? You're having a laugh - the current order was the last DMU order, wasn't it. Everything else from now on is going to be EMUs.

Adonis said this so it must be true...

That was based on lines being constantly electrified meaning the likes of 170s and 185s will replace Sprinters that are used on non-electrified routes, but with electrification projects being postponed for the forseeable future when will the likes of the 170s be available to replace Sprinters? Maybe in the 2020-2030s when the 170s are in need of replacement.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would very much doubt any will go into store, they are needed if they do someone needs shooting.

northerns net gain then is 4 150's and how many 142's from fgw? Anyone know if FGW are getting rid of 143's?

 

[northwichcat]

northerns net gain then is 4 150's and how many 142's from fgw? Anyone know if FGW are getting rid of 143's?

Not quite. The 7x142s going to Northern are to replace 3x180s, which is actually a net loss of one carriage but considering Northern don't use more than 10x180 carriages at any time due to maintainence and having a unit on standby for rescue purposes it could be considered a small net gain if the diagrams are used effectively.

The other thing worth considering are whether any 150s remain in 3 car formation (other than the 150/0s) and also that the London Midland 172 order releases a maximum of 72 150 carriages, which is 130 less carriages than were quoted as needed for Northern, FGW and TPE a few years ago by Labour and that didn't even include any for EMT.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't know whether or not the LM and Chiltern ones will have toilets but I would assume they will.

Yes the Chiltern and London Midland 172s have one toilet per unit.

Originally Posted by jimmyowl1992
northerns net gain then is 4 150's and how many 142's from fgw? Anyone know if FGW are getting rid of 143's?

The 143s are not part of any planned future cascade, they are long term FGW units, unlike the 7 142s which are more akin to being "on loan" to FGW, which are returning to Northern once FGW gets hold of enough replacement units (the LO and LM 150s).

7 142s instead of 3 180s will be more flexible for diagramming purposes, so can be used to bolster a wider range of services (even if the comfort levels take a dive!).

I suspect the 3 car LM 150s will be split into their respective two carriage formations, the maths of the cascade seems to be based around 2 carriage units going to FGW and Northern. If LM are keeping any 150s, I would imagine it would be prototypes 150001/2, as they are proper three car units and non standard in respect to the rest of the 150 fleet.

(Btw, not a new forum member, just a "refreshed" established prescence: Will stick with this one now)

 

[trains2064]

I think the suggestion was LM want 150s to replace their 153s and then cascade the 153s, which also lead to another suggestion that it's partly in the hope that LM get more new DMUs in the next order with the 150s and 142s being the oldest DMUs in operation.

You can never say never. With LM ment to be keeping 26 150 cars on completion of the 172 order in order to run Coventry (Leamington) to Nuneaton, Bedford to Bletchley and New Street to Hednesford then LM my seek to standardise the fleet. The 150's are in high demand else where and we do need to continue to build new rolling stock for replacement and development.

 

[northwichcat]

New Street to Hednesford

Although if LM cut this service to hourly as expected they should actually need less units and questions are also asked as to why 170s are used on this route while in other parts of the country 142s and 150s are running much longer services.

 

[trains2064]

Although if LM cut this service to hourly as expected they should actually need less units and questions are also asked as to why 170s are used on this route while in other parts of the country 142s and 150s are running much longer services.

On the split of CT the units were promised else where 9 150/2 to ATW, The loss of ex SL 150/1 to transport for london. the loss of 156 and 158 ment that in order to keep 150's for Snow hill lines and to cover the Bedford Bletchley service ment all that was left were 170's. Centro won't allow 142's on there services as they see this as a backwards step and the are not enough 150's to go round. The other issue being only a few TOC's use 170's but it was felt that 170's were still better as 158 and 156 have doors at the end of the coaches where as 170's like 150's have 1/3, 2/3 doors and they are wider to help with unloading.

 

[northwichcat]

Centro won't all 142's on there services as they see this as a backwards step and the are not enough 150's to go round.

Oh I see Liverpool-Norwich can take a backwards step from 170s to 158s, while FGW takes a backward step from 150s to 142s and Manchester-Scotland takes a backward step from 220s to 185s, but Birmingham isn't allowed a backward step.

 

[jopsuk]

Difference is having a PTE to fight their corner, isn't it?

 

[trains2064]

Difference is having a PTE to fight their corner, isn't it?

Exactly.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wouldn't mind 153's they proive good service on some stoppers in south yorkshire that due to timings are never full

 

[dave_wm]

Back when the Pacers were first shown round, Centro was one of the only PTEs which refused them, and ended up going for 150s instead.

Birmingham hasn't had any form of Pacer in passenger service since the trials of the 140s as far as I'm aware

 

[northwichcat]

Difference is having a PTE to fight their corner, isn't it?

Liverpool-Norwich starts in the Merseytravel area, goes in the GMPTE and then SYPTE and it still gets downgraded.

 

[trains2064]

Some would say and I would agree is that on the Liverpool to Norwich route is 170's to 158's is not a backwards step. 158's are often 3 cars as TP were and CT as well as GW have split them up to form 3. 1 Guard and 1 trolley can patrol a hole 2,3,4,5 or 6 car set making the more popular with TOC's and Crews as well s ticking more boxes for the customer.

The are 153's trough Birmingham on the locals but with the door issue take longer in the peak to load an unload.

 

[sprinterguy]

158's are often 3 cars as TP were and CT as well as GW have split them up to form 3.

The East Mildands ones used on the Liverpool-Norwich services aren't though, they're all two car units. Though I agree that the change from 170s to 158s on this route hasn't really been a backward step, as following the recent EMT refurb the 158s look very smart and fit for purpose, and now that EMT have enough units to allow 2x158s on Liverpool-Norwich on many services, capacity has increased over that provided by a 3 car 170.

The problem for routes such as Liverpool-Norwich and Manchester to Scotland is that they don't have a single unified authority to fight for service improvements for them; as is mentioned, Liverpool-Norwich traverses a number of PTE areas.

Birmingham-Chase line services fall largely within the Centro boundary, and so the PTE is more inclined to show an interest in the operation of the service, not least because Centro provide subsidy for the Rugeley services.

Birmingham always seems to have been incredibly lucky with it's rolling stock for local services in the last 20 years, and it's a real godsend that Centro chose 150s instead of Pacers! A very wise decision! It does seem peculiar that the West Midlands has the option of deploying high quality Turbostars on local routes with relatively low patronage when there are many more suitable longer distance routes that desperately need upgraded rolling stock.

It's also surprising how little opportunity GMPTE has to invest in increased and better quality rolling stock around Manchester, given that Manchester's overcrowding woes are considerable in comparison to Birmingham. Does seem a tad unfair!

 

[northwichcat]

The East Mildands ones used on the Liverpool-Norwich services aren't though, they're all two car units. Though I agree that the change from 170s to 158s on this route hasn't really been a backward step, as following the recent EMT refurb the 158s look very smart and fit for purpose, and now that EMT have enough units to allow 2x158s on Liverpool-Norwich on many services, capacity has increased over that provided by a 3 car 170.

It used to be very uncommon for a 2 car unit to appear on Liverpool-Norwich and you could get a 3 car 158, 2 x 2 car 158s, 3 car 170 - even on occasions a pair of 170s making the train length up to 5 cars.

The extra 10mph on the 170s is also handy for the route as it's not uncommon to lose time somewhere along the line.

The problem for routes such as Liverpool-Norwich and Manchester to Scotland is that they don't have a single unified authority to fight for service improvements for them; as is mentioned, Liverpool-Norwich traverses a number of PTE areas.

The worse overcrowding occurs where Warrington commuters board for Liverpool and Manchester. However, as EMT 158s and regional/local crews are Nottingham based it makes it difficult for 158s to be attached and detached at Lime St, Oxford Rd or Sheffield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1 Guard and 1 trolley can patrol a hole 2,3,4,5 or 6 car set making the more popular with TOC's and Crews as well s ticking more boxes for the customer.

I'm sure EMT would love to run 6 car 158s, but with the number of 158s they have most services operate as 2 car.

 

[trains2064]

I'm sure EMT would love to run 6 car 158s, but with the number of 158s they have most services operate as 2 car.[/QUOTE]

My last journey up here a couple of months ago I was on a four car 158.
I agree we would all dearly love more 158's. It was not uncomon with CT to often have 5 car sets on the route and TP often ran 5 cars sets. With extra trains services now run by a lot of tocs they have had to do this with no extra stock.

You only have to look at whe virgin cross country replace 7 car HST and loco hauled sets and doubled the main route frequency with 4/5 car 220 and 221 sets that this didn't work.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Won't EMT have enough stock for all to be 4 cars once sprinter refresh complete and the 4 NR 156's come through?

Does anyone think any new services have been unjustified? as it has led to less stock on other routes?

 

[starrymarkb]

.

It's also surprising how little opportunity GMPTE has to invest in increased and better quality rolling stock around Manchester, given that Manchester's overcrowding woes are considerable in comparison to Birmingham. Does seem a tad unfair!

GMPTE are only really interested in Metrolink

 

[northwichcat]

Won't EMT have enough stock for all to be 4 cars once sprinter refresh complete and the 4 NR 156's come through?

Does anyone think any new services have been unjustified? as it has led to less stock on other routes?

Not by a long way. It'll mean about half of Liverpool-Norwich services are 4 car between Liverpool and Nottingham only opposed to the current number of around of quarter between Liverpool and Nottingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The East Mildands ones used on the Liverpool-Norwich services aren't though, they're all two car units.

Originally CT got some TPE 3 car 158s although DfT decided that Northern should get some of the centre cars for York-Blackpool and FGW should get the other 3 car TPE 158s and Liverpool-Norwich get 2 car Alphaline ones in return.

Northern have since done their usual West Yorkshire favouritism with the 3 car 158s and now use them on Leeds stopping services and Leeds-Nottingham.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Surely the most downgraded route has got to be the Derby - Crewe line?

170/5 -> 158 -> 156 -> 153