Class 171: Pointless Modification?

[Ministry]

From what I've read Southern created the Class 171 by fitting a Dellner coupling system to their Class 170s so that they could be coupled to 377 units. However, I can't find any evidence that this has ever been done and it seems like a thoroughly pointless exercise in creating a non-standard unit.

If a 377 and a 171 were to run in multiple could they operate at a reasonable speed or would it just be a way of clearing the line if one unit or the other broke down? Also, assuming that they could run at normal speed in service, would there be any reason why a 377 and a 171 couldn't run in multiple to form a regular service? For instance, a 377 with a 171 splitting at Oxted for the East Grinstead and Uckfield branches respectively?

 

[ainsworth74]

However, I can't find any evidence that this has ever been done and it seems like a thoroughly pointless exercise in creating a non-standard unit.

No it was definitely done (see here and here). As far as I am aware it was not done to enable them to work in regular service together (and I don't think they can even with this modification) but instead to enable them to rescue each other in the event of a failure. I also have a feeling there is a speed restriction when they are coupled together but I'm not sure about that last point.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I thought that style of coupler could connect it to most Southern region EMUs?

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought that style of coupler could connect it to most Southern region EMUs?

Well I would assume a 171 could at least mechanically couple with anything that has a Dellner coupler but actually having the two units on board computers 'talk' to each other is a different issue.

 

[Ministry]

No it was definitely done (see here and here). As far as I am aware it was not done to enable them to work in regular service together (and I don't think they can even with this modification) but instead to enable them to rescue each other in the event of a failure. I also have a feeling there is a speed restriction when they are coupled together but I'm not sure about that last point.

Sorry - I should've phrased that differently. I meant I can't find any evidence that the two classes have ever been run in multiple together, which seems to render the whole exercise pointless.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Better to have them all compatable in case it is ever needed though. Just because it hasn't been needed so far doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen tonight, tomorrow or next week!

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry - I should've phrased that differently. I meant I can't find any evidence that the two classes have ever been run in multiple together, which seems to render the whole exercise pointless.

As said, I'm sure it's to allow rescue of a dead train only.

I can't think of an example of an EMU and DMU ever being able to run in multiple with one controlling the other - has it ever been done?

 

[southerner2174]

They have been used to couple just to shunt the broken unit into one of the sidings at Oxted at least once in the last 5 years, just to clear the line.

 

[tbtc]

Better to have them all compatable in case it is ever needed though. Just because it hasn't been needed so far doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen tonight, tomorrow or next week!

Agreed; its just a nuisance that we never arranged for *all* stock to be compatible of coupling together (like one massive Horny train set!). There's no way of doing it now, I guess, but its frustrating that similar trains still can't work together (e.g. 220/221s and 222s).

 

[bangor-toad]

I can't think of an example of an EMU and DMU ever being able to run in multiple with one controlling the other - has it ever been done?

Somewhere out there on the net is a photo and video of a Pendolino and Voyager set coupled together, with both units powered, storming up and down the WCML.

I wish I could remember where I saw it...
Jason

 

[sutty]

This thread reminds me of a question I wanted to ask. Coming into Tyseley a week or so back I saw a 17x that I'm sure was couples to a 150 rake. I thought this Would this just have been for shunting, however the whole rake was awaiting a signal to join the line by the look of it?

Sorry to ask on this thread, it set of the thought in my head.

Back to making my marmite on toast ( but that's a whole other thread!)

 

[90019]

This thread reminds me of a question I wanted to ask. Coming into Tyseley a week or so back I saw a 17x that I'm sure was couples to a 150 rake. I thought this Would this just have been for shunting, however the whole rake was awaiting a signal to join the line by the look of it?

170s can work in multiple with Sprinters, I'm not sure how often they work with 150s in service though.

 

[jopsuk]

LM regularly run 170s with 153s. Scotrail run 170s coupled to 158s. With the older coupler, 170s are fully 15x compatible.

Did the old Southern region 20x DEMUs ever run in multiple with 4xx units? I know the class 33 could run in multiple with 4VEPs- they did sometimes run, powered up, in formation out out of Waterloo.

 

[WillPS]

They aren't fully compatible. 156s require a mod.

 

[sutty]

170s can work in multiple with Sprinters, I'm not sure how often they work with 150s in service though.

Thanks for your response

Why anybody would elect to travel on a sprinter instead of a 17x is beyond me, however!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

From what I've read Southern created the Class 171 by fitting a Dellner coupling system to their Class 170s so that they could be coupled to 377 units. However, I can't find any evidence that this has ever been done and it seems like a thoroughly pointless exercise in creating a non-standard unit.

If a 377 and a 171 were to run in multiple could they operate at a reasonable speed or would it just be a way of clearing the line if one unit or the other broke down? Also, assuming that they could run at normal speed in service, would there be any reason why a 377 and a 171 couldn't run in multiple to form a regular service? For instance, a 377 with a 171 splitting at Oxted for the East Grinstead and Uckfield branches respectively?

Southern's 171s always had the Dellner coupler, it was not a modification, they were originally 170/7s, but it was only the number that changed. I don't think the 171s and the 375/376/377 units are electronically compatible and so I doubt line speed would ever happen and never run as a regular service.

Somewhere out there on the net is a photo and video of a Pendolino and Voyager set coupled together, with both units powered, storming up and down the WCML.

I wish I could remember where I saw it...
Jason

There was a test between a 221 (or was it a 220) and a 390, it was partly to test for compatibility when failed/stranded, but also for North Wales services AFAIK. IIRC it was a successful failure in that it worked but was not ideal.

LM regularly run 170s with 153s. Scotrail run 170s coupled to 158s. With the older coupler, 170s are fully 15x compatible.

Did the old Southern region 20x DEMUs ever run in multiple with 4xx units? I know the class 33 could run in multiple with 4VEPs- they did sometimes run, powered up, in formation out out of Waterloo.

Pretty much anything on the southern could couple to anything else, even the 319s could couple to slam door stock if it came to it, but quite a few options were for clearing the line only.

Thanks for your response

Why anybody would elect to travel on a sprinter instead of a 17x is beyond me, however!

On the basis of that comment, why stand in a packed 170 when you can sit in an empty 150?

 

[button_boxer]

Somewhere out there on the net is a photo and video of a Pendolino and Voyager set coupled together, with both units powered, storming up and down the WCML.

I wish I could remember where I saw it...
Jason

I've heard it said that one of the reasons for Voyager problems is that it's a Bombardier unit with an Alstom computer (specced as such to be pendo compatible). Meridians have a Bombardier computer, which plays more nicely with the hardware.

 

[90019]

Southern's 171s always had the Dellner coupler, it was not a modification, they were originally 170/7s, but it was only the number that changed.

I thought only some were built with Dellners, but the early ones were converted?

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought only some were built with Dellners, but the early ones were converted?

The 171/8s were built with Dellners from new, but it is my belief as well, backed up by the Platform 5 Combined Volume, that 171721-726 were built as 170/7s with BSI couplers and were retrofitted with Dellners. Additionally 171730 used to be SWTs’ 170392, so that one was certainly retrofitted.

 

[mbonwick]

They aren't fully compatible. 156s require a mod.

Hardly anything major though, a slight rearrangement of wiring on the 156 coupler head to stop the buzzer going off in the sprinter? Something to do with the extra door proving circuits in 170s IIRC.

 

[sutty]

On the basis of that comment, why stand in a packed 170 when you can sit in an empty 150?

Not to detract too much from this thread but I prefer the ride and comfort of 17x's compared to 150's. Who's to say the 170 is packed?

Sprinters are my pacer... (and I've never travelled on a pacer!)

 

[dubscottie]

If I remember rightly the Class 210 was designed to be fully compatible with class 317's.

DMU's are used to haul EMU's around in ireland....

http://transportsceneireland.smugmu...-2011/17368370_4nQqJ9#1338551579_kshBsqM-A-LB

 

[Burkitt]

I can't think of an example of an EMU and DMU ever being able to run in multiple with one controlling the other - has it ever been done?

In Denmark IC3 DMUs and IR4 EMUs frequently run together on electrified lines, with the train splitting and the diesel part continuing to unwired destinations.

 

[Turbostar]

LM regularly run 170s with 153s. Scotrail run 170s coupled to 158s. With the older coupler, 170s are fully 15x compatible.

Did the old Southern region 20x DEMUs ever run in multiple with 4xx units? I know the class 33 could run in multiple with 4VEPs- they did sometimes run, powered up, in formation out out of Waterloo.

They did indeed in the 80's if I remember, not sure about earlier though. I remember before the Oxted Line was refurbished & electrified to East Grinstead, they used to run trains consisting of a 423 + a 205/207 or 2 to South Croydon, the 423 was uncoupled & went it's seperate way down the Brighton line somewhere, & the 2 207s would then run down the Oxted Line, splitting up again at Hurst Green, 1 went to East Grinstead, the other went to Uckfield. Then when the line was refurbished & electrified to East Grinstead in 1987 (I remember this as it was the year I left school), the EMU/DEMU combo continued to Hurst Green, & the split was made there.

 

[Fincra5]

How is having a Dellner on a 171 pointless? If a 377 breaks down on a 2 track line, and the train behind was a 171, then it can be coupled up to drag or propel a 377.

 

[sonorguy]

Agreed; its just a nuisance that we never arranged for *all* stock to be compatible of coupling together (like one massive Horny train set!). There's no way of doing it now, I guess, but its frustrating that similar trains still can't work together (e.g. 220/221s and 222s).

My bold; Is this a new adults only train set then?

 

[talltim]

My bold; Is this a new adults only train set then?

Contains a Pendodildo

 

[tbtc]

My bold; Is this a new adults only train set then?

Yeah, I should really read what I type shouldn't I?

 

[Skimble19]

Contains a Pendodildo

Surely you mean bendydildo?

 

[ViscountFan]

They did indeed in the 80's if I remember, not sure about earlier though. I remember before the Oxted Line was refurbished & electrified to East Grinstead, they used to run trains consisting of a 423 + a 205/207 or 2 to South Croydon, the 423 was uncoupled & went it's seperate way down the Brighton line somewhere, & the 2 207s would then run down the Oxted Line, splitting up again at Hurst Green, 1 went to East Grinstead, the other went to Uckfield. Then when the line was refurbished & electrified to East Grinstead in 1987 (I remember this as it was the year I left school), the EMU/DEMU combo continued to Hurst Green, & the split was made there.

Also, back in the 1970s there was a service leaving Waterloo at around 18:00 which comprised a 33 / 4TC / 4 or 8 VEP formation. This split at Basingstoke with the VEP continuing to Southampton while the 33 and TC went forward to Salisbury.