Clapham Junction - London Bridge via Tulse Hill

[big_dirt]

Hi, I realise similar questions have been asked several times already but there seems to be conflicting information and some of it is quite detailed.

Given that a direct train runs from Clapham Junction to London Bridge via Crystal Palace, can a monthly ticket from Clapham Junction to London Bridge be used on that service?

Can a passenger with such a ticket board at Streatham Hill?

Given that there is a once daily service from Streatham Hill to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, can a passenger with a season ticket from Clapham Junction to London Bridge use it to travel on all services from Tulse Hill to London Bridge?

Thanks and / or apologies in advance.

 

[island]

Hi, I realise similar questions have been asked several times already but there seems to be conflicting information and some of it is quite detailed.

Given that a direct train runs from Clapham Junction to London Bridge via Crystal Palace, can a monthly ticket from Clapham Junction to London Bridge be used on that service?

A ticket from X to Y is always valid on a through train from X to Y. In other words, if you have a ticket from X to Y, get on a train at X, and get off the same train at Y (without it having terminated or doubled back) your ticket is valid for that journey. (There are a few exceptions arising from negative easements, but they don't come into play here.)

Can a passenger with such a ticket board at Streatham Hill?

In the absence of a break of journey restriction (which doesn't come into play on season tickets) a ticket that is valid for a journey on a train is valid for part of that journey on the same train. A ticket from Lee (London) to Charlton is valid to Crayford if used on a train that's going on via Slade Green to Charlton.

Given that there is a once daily service from Streatham Hill to London Bridge via Tulse Hill, can a passenger with a season ticket from Clapham Junction to London Bridge use it to travel on all services from Tulse Hill to London Bridge?

Not for that reason. A ticket may be valid to make a journey on one train but not to make the same journey (going through the same stations) with a change of train.

However, Clapham Junction to London Bridge can be done using map LB, which includes travelling via Streatham, Tulse Hill, and Peckham Rye. That's enough to make a Clapham Junction to London Bridge ticket valid for a journey from Tulse Hill to London Bridge (as well as the more orthodox route via Waterloo/Waterloo East).

A ticket from Clapham Junction to London Bridge is also valid:

• from East Croydon to London Bridge, via Crystal Palace/Tulse Hill/Peckham Rye or via New Cross Gate (map LB)
• from Beckenham Junction to Lewisham (map LK)
• from Tooting via Sutton to Norwood Junction (map SC)

Thanks and / or apologies in advance.

Are we having fun yet?

 

[big_dirt]

So the Clapham Junction to London Bridge ticket will operate the barriers at Tulse Hill?

Are we having fun yet?

Loads!

 

[island]

So the Clapham Junction to London Bridge ticket will operate the barriers at Tulse Hill?

Damned if I know. The real question is whether it would work at Beckenham Junction, Hither Green, or somewhere else that it's valid.

 

[IainH]

Soooo...would those routes apply to any ticket ordinarily valid between 'London Stations' and Clapham Junction (eg Basingstoke - London), such as a season or a CDR?

 

[clagmonster]

No, only London Terminals-Clapham Jn tickets. The routeing guide is not linear, so although a London Terminals-Basingstoke ticket is valid for travel through Clapham Jn, it is not neccesarily valid over the same routes as a London Terminals-Clapham Jn ticket, if that makes sense. The routeing Guide, which will enable you to work out the valid routes for any journey in the country, can be found here:
http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

 

[Barn]

Damned if I know. The real question is whether it would work at Beckenham Junction, Hither Green, or somewhere else that it's valid.

How does the Hither Green validity work?

 

[b0b]

How does the Hither Green validity work?

Clapham Junction to London Bridge is valid on a CJ to London Terminals ticket on map LK and looking at LK, the following route seems valid:

Clapham Junction ->Beckenham Junction (Via Herne Hill or Streatham & Crystal Palace) -> Bromley South -> Grove Park -> Hither Green -> New Cross -> London Bridge

 

[cjohnson]

So... would a Clapham Jct-London season be permitted on a Streatham-London Bridge train (as map LB permits a CLJ-London journey via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Peckham Rye without doubling back)?

 

[island]

It would have to be. In the unlikely event of the train being boarded by RPIs, you may end up spending a long time discussing the routeing guide with them (or having to appeal a PF!)

 

[big_dirt]

I am considering trying this next month. Tulse Hill - London Bridge, using a Clapham Junction - London Bridge season ticket.

There are quite frequent ticket checks between Tulse Hill and London Bridge. I got caught out on it once when the Victoria line was down and rail and bus were accepting tube tickets. I went to Tulse Hill to get the train to London Bridge instead of my normal tube route of Brixton-Stockwell-London Bridge.

I got my oyster checked and as I only had zones 1-2 I was given a penalty fare.

I appealed it successfully though by printing off the BBC travel advisory and sending it off.

The RPI was quite intimidatory in his tone initially but I engaged him in conversation and he said that they concentrate on Tulse Hill - North Dulwich as people tend to evade around zonal boundaries.

 

[yorkie]

If you have cash (and time) to spare for a court battle, then I would say go for it, I wish you luck, and let us know when the court date is as I know some people would like to see it if possible. Make sure you get a really good lawyer (who is experienced in railway ticketing matters) too.

 

[big_dirt]

If you have cash (and time) to spare for a court battle, then I would say go for it, I wish you luck, and let us know when the court date is as I know some people would like to see it if possible. Make sure you get a really good lawyer (who is experienced in railway ticketing matters) too.

Wow, what wit! I am sure that dinner time at your house is great fun!

Would they automatically go for a court case in this instance? If it were to be dealt with by a penalty fare I could appeal that, as pointed out above. A £20 penalty fare would plus the cost of a monthly from Clapham Junction to London Bridge would be less than the cost of a monthly from Tulse Hill to London Bridge.

After the first penalty fare, I would put in my appeal and then go from Streatham Hill to London Bridge on the same ticket because I live equidistant between Tulse Hill and Streatham Hill.

Based on the outcome of the penalty fare appeal then I would make my decision on which way to proceed in future.

 

[yorkie]

No idea what you mean by the dinner reference, I am not stating if it is or is not valid, just that you must be prepared to fight it if you try it. This was debated before, and it was inconclusive.

I agree that a Penalty Fare may be a possible outcome however if they find you have used this ticket for this journey for, say, a couple of weeks, then they may well deem a PF is not appropriate and that a report should be submitted to determine if the matter should be decided before a court.

This is why I am making it clear now that you should only do this if you are prepared to fight it in court. If you are, then I wish you good luck. If you are not, then don't risk it on the basis that you will 'only' get a penalty fare. I am making this warning for the benefit of you, and anyone else who has a similar idea who finds this thread through Google.

My own opinion is that if a train is valid on the direct trains rule, then of course the journey is valid by such trains (and I would argue you could also get off those trains and wait for another direct train) it is highly dubious exiting the station at a location where the ticket is not valid other than for the purposes of being on a direct train, though. So dubious that I would strongly advise against it unless you're prepared to argue your case...

 

[big_dirt]

No idea what you mean by the dinner reference, I am not stating if it is or is not valid, just that you must be prepared to fight it if you try it. This was debated before, and it was inconclusive.

I agree that a Penalty Fare may be a possible outcome however if they find you have used this ticket for this journey for, say, a couple of weeks, then they may well deem a PF is not appropriate and that a report should be submitted to determine if the matter should be decided before a court.

This is why I am making it clear now that you should only do this if you are prepared to fight it in court. If you are, then I wish you good luck. If you are not, then don't risk it on the basis that you will 'only' get a penalty fare. I am making this warning for the benefit of you, and anyone else who has a similar idea who finds this thread through Google.

My own opinion is that if a train is valid on the direct trains rule, then of course the journey is valid by such trains (and I would argue you could also get off those trains and wait for another direct train) it is highly dubious exiting the station at a location where the ticket is not valid other than for the purposes of being on a direct train, though. So dubious that I would strongly advise against it unless you're prepared to argue your case...

Apologies, I thought you were attempting to be facetious with your post, suggesting that someone would gladly go in to a court case in order to prove a point. Of course I am not in such a position to fight this in court.

I take your point as well that a penalty fare might not be deemed the most appropriate.

As it stands I take the train from Tulse Hill to Elephant and Castle each day and walk the remainder to London Bridge. It's only £42 a month, the extra walk is about 15 minutes and the TUH - ELE journey is about 10 minutes quicker than LBG. I have also found a great route which keeps me off Borough High Street. Not really worth risking prosecution for £10 a month.

I think, unless someone else is willing to take up the court case, that I will keep on with my current route. At least the extra walk each day might help shift a bit of my belly. I would really enjoy finding a hole in the terms and conditions and exploit it though.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[LexyBoy]

CLJ - LBG via TUH is valid according to both the Routeing Guide and the National Rail Journey Planner, so I can't see any way of disputing that it is a valid route.

You could try contacting Southern asking for them to confirm that the ticket is valid via TUH. The response could then be used if there were any problems with RPIs.

Of course in the longer term the validity via TUH and other routes may mysteriously vanish...

 

[big_dirt]

Sorry to bring this up again, but I notice that the monthly from Herne Hill to London Bridge is £20 less than the monthly from Tulse Hill but the journey planner routes the journey through Tulse Hill so I think that such a ticket would be valid if stopped by Revenue Protection. The only question is whether it would operate the ticket barriers in Tulse Hill.

Any ideas?

 

[island]

Ticket gates are a law unto themselves. You have everything from accepting any ticket whatsoever (King's Cross) to rejecting randomly-selected categories of tickets so that an attendant can have a look (reported on several FGW stations).

 

[LexyBoy]

If you're happy with convincing station staff that it's valid then you shouldn't have a problem after a few weeks - TUH is a small station after all and I expect whoever's on the barrier would recognise you after a while and let you through with a roll of the eyes

You could always try it with a day ticket...

 

[big_dirt]

You could always try it with a day ticket...

A day ticket being a single or a ticket which allows unlimited travel throughout the day like a daily season ticket?

I presume that season tickets allow unlimited travel between any stations between the two names on the station but singles do not?

I am really intrigued from an experimentation point of view and would gladly even accept a penalty fare to attempt to argue it and see what the outcome would be.

What I don't want is to get prosecuted as a result of my curiosity.

 

[island]

An anytime (day) single ticket allows break of journey so can be used for any fragment of the journey as well (as per my old chestnut of using a ticket from Lewisham to Charlton to get to Crayford on one of the Southeastern circular services). Almost all off-peak tickets and many super off-peak tickets allow this too.

 

[big_dirt]

An anytime (day) single ticket allows break of journey so can be used for any fragment of the journey as well (as per my old chestnut of using a ticket from Lewisham to Charlton to get to Crayford on one of the Southeastern circular services). Almost all off-peak tickets and many super off-peak tickets allow this too.

Thanks for that. I will have to try it then. I cannot be done on board the train or at the platform as I will be taking the correct route as it is the shortest.

I don't really want to get in to the knowledge of the barrier staff and the nod and the wink though. I want for everything to be above board and untouchable becasue that way I'll have beaten the system!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An anytime (day) single ticket allows break of journey so can be used for any fragment of the journey as well (as per my old chestnut of using a ticket from Lewisham to Charlton to get to Crayford on one of the Southeastern circular services). Almost all off-peak tickets and many super off-peak tickets allow this too.

I tried an anytime day single from Herne Hill to London Bridge. At the gates when I tried the ticket it said Seek Assistance.

 

[island]

That is entirely unsurprising; while the gates probably can be programmed with the entire routeing guide, I don't think anyone will bother. Did the gate staff have any issue with your ticket?

 

[big_dirt]

That is entirely unsurprising; while the gates probably can be programmed with the entire routeing guide, I don't think anyone will bother. Did the gate staff have any issue with your ticket?

Well, I already had my existing season ticket so when my train went through Herne Hill, I got off the train and bought a single from Herne Hill to London Bridge. I then got the next train to Tulse Hill, got off, used my season ticket to exit as normal and then tried to use the Herne Hill ticket to get back in again. I recognised that this would probably be relatively suspicious behaviour so I went to the unmanned barriers in Tulse Hill to try it so didn't interact with the gate staff.

So it would appear that unless there is a travelcard or else a journey originating in Tulse Hill the barriers will not open!

 

[swt_passenger]

So it would appear that unless there is a travelcard or else a journey originating in Tulse Hill the barriers will not open!

Exam question.

Please provide a list of all the station pairs A and B in mainland GB which might be valid for a break at Tulse Hill. With regard to the National Routeing Guide, show all working. Write gateline software that can easily and quickly check this without delays whenever a ticket is presented.

 

[big_dirt]

Exam question.

Please provide a list of all the station pairs A and B in mainland GB which might be valid for a break at Tulse Hill. With regard to the National Routeing Guide, show all working. Write gateline software that can easily and quickly check this without delays whenever a ticket is presented.

Am I to take it that the examiner setting the exam question knows the correct answer?

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I to take it that the examiner setting the exam question knows the correct answer?

Er... no.

I've just always assumed barriers will not be set up for 'breaks' - ever since it was explained to me why it can't easily be done.

 

[big_dirt]

I sent an email to Southern to ask if a Clapham Junction - London Bridge ticket is valid for TUH - LBG.

This is the response:

Dear Mr XXX

Thank you for contacting Southern customer services. With regards to this issue I can tell you that season tickets are specific between point A and point B.

Due to this you will normally not be able to pass through the barriers at Tulse Hill. If there is no electronic barrier at Tulse Hill then you may be stopped by a revenue protection officer and incur a penalty fair.

I hope that this information has been helpful. If you have any further questions, or queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards

John Ferry
Southern Customer Services
08451 27 29 20

 

[LexyBoy]

I sent an email to Southern to ask if a Clapham Junction - London Bridge ticket is valid for TUH - LBG.

This is the response:

Dear Mr XXX

Thank you for contacting Southern customer services. With regards to this issue I can tell you that season tickets are specific between point A and point B.

Due to this you will normally not be able to pass through the barriers at Tulse Hill. If there is no electronic barrier at Tulse Hill then you may be stopped by a revenue protection officer and incur a penalty fair.

I hope that this information has been helpful. If you have any further questions, or queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards

John Ferry
Southern Customer Services
08451 27 29 20

Erm... So are they saying that a Season is only valid at Herne Hill and London Bridge, or that Tulse Hill is not a valid route? Either way, they need some education methinks! Also I'd be disinclined to trust the verdict of someone who can't spell 'fare'.

I would simply have asked whether TUH is a valid route, and if not why. There's no question that a Season is valid for past journeys.

 

[Mojo]

A ''penalty fair'' sounds fun. Is there a tombola and cake stall? Hope there's no morris dancing!