Civic Identity (Bury/Oldham etc)

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely by the logic of your original posting, Stockport, Bury and Wigan's respective grounds are all in Manchester...?

My original posting did not refer to Manchester. It referred to the ten areas that make up Greater Manchester which is the area covered by TfGM. These ten areas are Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Tameside, Stockport, Trafford, Manchester and Salford.

Do not confuse Manchester with Greater Manchester.

Always glad to be of assistance.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My original posting did not refer to Manchester. It referred to the ten areas that make up Greater Manchester which is the area covered by TfGM. These ten areas are Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Tameside, Stockport, Trafford, Manchester and Salford.

Do not confuse Manchester with Greater Manchester.

Always glad to be of assistance.

Sorry my error, one of those days.

No need for that last comment.

 

[tbtc]

I think that this only goes to show that the boundaries between the "horizontal" councils of Greater Manchester (City of Manchester, Salford, Trafford...) are fairly unimportant (compared to the boundaries between these and Bolton/ Oldham etc.

Even Trafford Council are confused about the boundaries between Trafford and Salford!

Look also at the controversy when Everton were looking at a location for a new ground in Merseyside, but was outside the Liverpool boundaries.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry, forgot to paste this link - http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...trafford_uses_image_of_salford_to_sell_itself - if Trafford Council don't know where Trafford ends and Salford begins then...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, forgot to paste this link - http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...trafford_uses_image_of_salford_to_sell_itself - if Trafford Council don't know where Trafford ends and Salford begins then...

When you consider that the publication was there to promote Trafford, you would have thought that draft copies would have been vetted prior to the final publication of this document. This has reflected very badly upon Trafford and the Manchester Evening News has seized upon this shortcoming in this link and the apologies from Trafford are somewhat down in the body of the article, whilst giving Salford the opportunity to make its own comment on the affair.

I think you are somewhat unkind though, as I am sure that in reality that both Trafford and Salford know where their own lands are, as they issue rates demands, both private and business, that fall within their areas.

 

[Gareth]

I would find it really hard to believe most people in Wigan would say they come from Manchester. In reality, Manchester is larger than the city council area but smaller than 'Greater Manchester' the county.

Same with Liverpool & Merseyside. Subract Southport & St Helens from Merseyside and you've more or less got the real boundaries of Liverpool

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Same with Liverpool & Merseyside. Subract Southport & St Helens from Merseyside and you've more or less got the real boundaries of Liverpool

I think you should add all of Merseyside on the Wirral to your "subtractions" above.

 

[tbtc]

When you consider that the publication was there to promote Trafford, you would have thought that draft copies would have been vetted prior to the final publication of this document. This has reflected very badly upon Trafford and the Manchester Evening News has seized upon this shortcoming in this link and the apologies from Trafford are somewhat down in the body of the article, whilst giving Salford the opportunity to make its own comment on the affair.

I think you are somewhat unkind though, as I am sure that in reality that both Trafford and Salford know where their own lands are, as they issue rates demands, both private and business, that fall within their areas.

I think that my link goes to show that some local authority boundaries/ identities are fairly insignificant (compared to others).

If Trafford Council don't appear to know where their territory ends and Salford begins then why are we even arguing about any differences?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Not sure about the 'centralisation' argument improving things though. Every one of the constituent municipalities which used to run it's own bus services had a certain pride in the transport undertaking - even Salford had it's own identity when it had it's own green buses. If you ask anyone of that certain age nearly all will say the buses were better when we used to run them. People weren't given a say in all this centralisation and some of the muncipal operators even recorded a profit in the tougher times - something GMT never done with it's bog standard dismal orange fleet. All that any of the co-ordinated transport authorities ever seemed to do was favour the largest constituent - all roads led to the core with the constituent towns and their centres losing out in the process. The metrolink process of eliminating towns from the mainline rail network only serves to subjugate the identity of those towns further. Oldham once had it's own tram network, now it's just a few stops on Manchester's.

 

[tbtc]

Not sure about the 'centralisation' argument improving things though. Every one of the constituent municipalities which used to run it's own bus services had a certain pride in the transport undertaking - even Salford had it's own identity when it had it's own green buses. If you ask anyone of that certain age nearly all will say the buses were better when we used to run them. People weren't given a say in all this centralisation and some of the muncipal operators even recorded a profit in the tougher times - something GMT never done with it's bog standard dismal orange fleet. All that any of the co-ordinated transport authorities ever seemed to do was favour the largest constituent - all roads led to the core with the constituent towns and their centres losing out in the process. The metrolink process of eliminating towns from the mainline rail network only serves to subjugate the identity of those towns further. Oldham once had it's own tram network, now it's just a few stops on Manchester's.

Back in the Good Old Days, people could live their life in their local borough.

Nowadays people commute much further distances, they also travel further for leisure/ shopping etc.

Transport needs to keep up with these changes, hence Chester being part of the Merseyside "zones" for season tickets and Skipton/ Harrogate being part of the West Yorkshire "zones".

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Back in the Good Old Days, people could live their life in their local borough.

Nowadays people commute much further distances, they also travel further for leisure/ shopping etc.

Transport needs to keep up with these changes, hence Chester being part of the Merseyside "zones" for season tickets and Skipton/ Harrogate being part of the West Yorkshire "zones".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mq59ykPnAE

 

[Gareth]

I think you should add all of Merseyside on the Wirral to your "subtractions" above.

And I don't but there you go.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back in the Good Old Days, people could live their life in their local borough....Nowadays people commute much further distances, they also travel further for leisure/ shopping etc.

Are there any examples of "identity subjugation" in your own area of South Yorkshire to which you could draw a similarity?

 

[tbtc]

Are there any examples of "identity subjugation" in your own area of South Yorkshire to which you could draw a similarity?

Dronfield is becoming a suburb of Sheffield.

More people in Chesterfield work/shop in Sheffield than in Derby. Same goes for the Hope Valley part of Derbyshire.

But if politics doesn't recognise the changing "gravity" that cities are having over areas, regardless of boundaries, then rail is going to look very inflexible compared to road (since cars cross boundaries without any bother, but train services/ ticket prices can change significantly when a local government boundary is crossed.

 

[dvboy]

"Greater Manchester" works a lot better than "Greater Birmingham" ever would.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And I don't but there you go.

Fair enough, but I am hard pressed to see Heswall as part of Liverpool.

 

[pmgarvey]

I think that this only goes to show that the boundaries between the "horizontal" councils of Greater Manchester (City of Manchester, Salford, Trafford...) are fairly unimportant (compared to the boundaries between these and Bolton/ Oldham etc.

Even Trafford Council are confused about the boundaries between Trafford and Salford!

Look also at the controversy when Everton were looking at a location for a new ground in Merseyside, but was outside the Liverpool boundaries.

Maybe they were tying to promote the view from Trafford?

It reminds me of my first ever visit to Newcastle, my friend took me to a bar on Quayside and said the decision he has to make daily is whether to sit in Newcastle and have to look at Gateshead or have to sit in Gateshead but get to look at Newcastle.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would find it really hard to believe most people in Wigan would say they come from Manchester. In reality, Manchester is larger than the city council area but smaller than 'Greater Manchester' the county.

As I said in an earlier posting, the good citizens of Leigh who are classified as now being part of Wigan in the make-up of Greater Manchester, have a real identity crisis.

I am somewhat thankful that my own area has only been submitted to the change from Cheshire to Cheshire East in recent area changes, even though it borders upon Greater Manchester. I cannot imagine our "magic triangle" of Prestbury, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge ever accepting the thought of being part of Greater Manchester. It came as something of a culture shock to both Altrincham and Hale when they were included in the Trafford part of Greater Manchester.

 

[oglord]

If you look at Salford as a city in its own right, as it was Old Trafford football ground would have fallen within its boundaries...

Not the city of Salford, but Old Trafford as well as Manchester itself fall within the ancient Lancashire hundred of Salford.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not the city of Salford, but Old Trafford as well as Manchester itself fall within the ancient Lancashire hundred of Salford.

In this historical entity, you bring back the conglomeration of townships that is partly reflected by Greater Manchester today. The Hundred of Salford dates back to Anglo-Saxon times and after the Norman invasion, it was recorded as such in the Domesday Book as encompasing the lands Inter Ripam et Mersam (between Ribble and Mersey). It occupied an area of 212,170 acres. The area then became a subdivision of the County Palatine of Lancaster in 1182.

The Hundred of Salford was a large geographical area that stretched nothwards as far as Bacup and encompassed areas in Todmorden, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton, Denton, Didsbury,Manchester, Salford, Chat Moss, Aspull, Bolton and Turton. Even after its connection with the County Palatine of Lancaster, it was still allowed to retain its judicial Court Leet until the 19th century.

One sad reminder of this historical area was brought to mind, the following day after "The Peterloo Masssacre" when notices were printed and displayed that were headed "To the inhabitants of the Hundred of Salford" and went on to say that "Military Exercises would take place against those having seditious and treasonable purposes".

The Hundred of Salford was finally legally abolished on 31st January 1971, some forty years ago.

 

[tbtc]

I don't know why some people get so snobby about boundaries (like those on the Wirral who drop Merseyside from their address, so that their "Chester" postcode will give people the impression that they live in Cheshire).

A rose by any other name...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know why some people get so snobby about boundaries (like those on the Wirral who drop Merseyside from their address, so that their "Chester" postcode will give people the impression that they live in Cheshire).

A rose by any other name...

Since the postal code system was established, looking at the Trafford area that was formerly part of Cheshire, the following applies:-

Sale...postcode M33...under the Manchester coding system

Altrincham...postcodes WA14/WA15...under the Warrington coding system

Hale...postcode WA15...under the Warrington coding system

There is the matter of postal codes being used for insurance premium rating systems, which is nothing to do with "snobbishness", but can result in quite a financial saving over all insured items over the period of a year.

With regard to "County" names, the Royal Mail are currently in the process of eliminating these from postal addresses, as this will reduce the address lines by one, in company and private mailing systems, and help with letter sorting with the latest updated mechanised systems.

 

[Gareth]

Fair enough, but I am hard pressed to see Heswall as part of Liverpool.

Because it's posh? It and West Kirby are only the western version of the posh outer-suburbs you get in the north (Crosby etc), east (Knowsley Village etc) & south (Woolton etc).

As for you're mention of Leigh, it kinda really did get the short straw, being stuck with a much larger town, Wigan, aside the whole Greater Manchester thing.

This side of Wigan North Western, Southport got the poorest deal. While there's an element of anti-Liverpolitanism, the main beef has been with Sefton and the power struggle it has with Bootle. Of course, Bootle isn't fond of the arrangement either, but at least they're not cut off from their immediate neighbours by a narrow corridor of county boundary.

Ideally, I'd like a London-style system for Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham & possibly Newcastle, with local boroughs and a larger, strategic body for continuity. They'd be larger than the current official city boundaries but smaller than the metropolitan countys they're currently in. In Merseyside's case, I'd take Southport & Formby out of Sefton and merge it with the existing West Lancashire district (Ormskirk, Skelmersdale etc) as a unitary authority. It'd be considered a part of Lancashire. St Helens would have no change, except that it'd be considered a part of Lancashire. The remains of Sefton, Knowsley, Wirral & Liverpool would be part of a Greater Liverpool. The boroughs would remain as they are, although Sefton would take in some parts of northern Liverpool and Knowsley some eastern parts, to balance out the populations. The city would continue to co-operate on a wider regional level with western Cheshire, south-west Lancashire etc, and on even wider scales, such as North West England, North Wales etc where there's common desire or necessity.

A lot more power for city & county halls would be nice too, as well as more town & parish councils.


Nothing to do with trains, but hey ho!

 

[tbtc]

Since the postal code system was established, looking at the Trafford area that was formerly part of Cheshire, the following applies:-

Sale...postcode M33...under the Manchester coding system

Altrincham...postcodes WA14/WA15...under the Warrington coding system

Hale...postcode WA15...under the Warrington coding system

There is the matter of postal codes being used for insurance premium rating systems, which is nothing to do with "snobbishness", but can result in quite a financial saving over all insured items over the period of a year.

With regard to "County" names, the Royal Mail are currently in the process of eliminating these from postal addresses, as this will reduce the address lines by one, in company and private mailing systems, and help with letter sorting with the latest updated mechanised systems.

Insurance companies aren't daft, they price things according to the risks, and do so for the street.

If you street has had a dozen cars pinched/ houses broken into in the last year then they'll price according to that risk, regardless of whether you put "leafy Cheshire" on your address.

The idea that multi-million-pound insurance companies can't spot a risky area in a posh town, or a safe neighbourhood in a run down city strikes me as a little naive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Insurance companies aren't daft, they price things according to the risks, and do so for the street.

I agree with what you say above, but the fact remains on a like-for-like basis, the insurance premiums are dearer in the M33 area than the WA14/WA15 areas, given the same crime frequency, but not all insurance is there as a cover against criminal activity. House shell policies are a good example of what I am trying to give as an example of insurance cover.

Do you have any views on the Royal Mail no longer requiring the use of county names in addresses, but just the town name followed by the postcode, as I stated previously.

 

[Greenback]

Royal Mail hasn't required the use of counties in addresses since 1994. I know, I was working there at the time!

 

[radamfi]

Royal Mail's counties were inconsistent anyway. They included some post-1974 counties such as Merseyside, but excluded others such as Greater Manchester. Best thing is to leave it off allowing people to choose their own county based on their own beliefs. With the continual replacement of two-tier local government with unitary authorities, counties are becoming irrelevant in administrative terms. Wales and Scotland are already totally single tier.

I appreciate, however, that counties are still maintained on address lookup databases. Curiously though, on the 16-25 Railcard application website if, for example, you put in a house number and postcode in Rochdale, it fills the 'county' field with 'Greater Manchester' whereas Rochdale has always used Lancashire as the postal county. So I wonder how these databases choose the county.

 

[Greenback]

You're right. IIRC, the sorting selection in Swansea when I worked there saw places like Sale put in the Cheshire residue boxes. Warrington, Chester and Crewe were the only places in Cheshire that had a direct selection.

The problem with the address databases is that there are a lot of them about. Royal Mail is responsible for the Postal Address Database, but other organisations can buy a licence to use the data and produce their own software. Then other companies can use those even though they have become out of date. Some websites still say we live in Dyfed when I put our address in, even though that was abolished in 1996!

 

[radamfi]

Some websites still say we live in Dyfed when I put our address in, even though that was abolished in 1996!

The database might use the 'preserved county', which are used for lieutenancy, similar to 'ceremonial counties' of England, which might have been used in the Rochdale example I gave earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

 

[Gareth]

Greater Manchester was the only new county, as far as I know, that wasn't used by the Post Office.

I wouldn't look too much into it anyhow. The Post Office is not the authority on political or cultural geography. Bootle, which I consider a part of North Liverpool is its own postal town. Further north, you have Formby, a place I don't consider Liverpool. The Post Office puts it under Liverpool as its post town though. Weird stuff.