Civic Identity (Bury/Oldham etc)

[Mutant Lemming]

Do you think that the identity and status of towns such as Bury and Oldham have been lessened to just another Manchester suburb because they have lost their 'proper' railway station and are now just a tram stop ?

 

[HYPODERMIC]

I'm not sure. I mean, I would actually see this as a good thing in the case of Manchester; I believe it has significantly outgrown its archaic city boundaries; its population is now seriously undercounted if you ask me (ie. Trafford not actually counting as Manchester), and for civic pride, and the sense of my conurbation being in competition with others like the West Midlands and London I'd actually like to see a move towards stronger conurbation unity around the Manchester brand.

So, even with my pro-Manchester bias, do I see this happening? Sort of, kind of, maybe. Do I think the Metrolink is triggering or accelerating it? Even harder to say.

I don't think it's made as significant a difference as the question might suggest, and that there's still a strong sense of Bury being a mix between a Manchester suburb and its own town.

I think the independent mindset is withering away a little bit - you can already feel that the mood is shifting away from being a place in 'Lancashire' to generally being 'Manchester' - and I think time and generational replacement will see this continue. The railways will play a part in this; faster transit always makes people and places seem and feel closer, but I think it will be a small part.

To put it bluntly, I think civic pride in the Metropolitan Boroughs will fade, if it does, simply because kids these days don't pay as much attention to the historical shires (a few of my friends do not even know the counties of their hometowns) as they do to the sprawl, especially as social networking makes it easier to form and maintain friendships across conurbations, increasing the sense of being just one city.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and kids will actually turn out to reaffirm how they aren't-Manchester-at-all-but-actually-something-separate. Either way, I can't see light rail systems a massive lot more than a symbolic/catalytic role in this; certainly not as a primary factor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These are two of the ten bodies that make up Greater Manchester and there is now a greater awareness of this as a regional entity amongst the general public. In the old days, each town/city ran its own dedicated bus and tram organisation in their own distinctive liveries.

I must confess to having heard stories from the good citizens of Leigh who feel a certain identity crisis from the creation of this new large entity, being on the south-west corner of the conurbation.

The move forward to the present day sees TfGM (and the former GMPTE) looking at the "large picture" issue with regard to all forms of public transport, rather than focusing on each area individually.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It was just that there seemed a noticeable difference between people from Bury saying they were from Bury near Manchester whereas people from Botlon and Wigan were most definitely from Bolton Lancs, Wigan Lancs and not Greater Manchester. I was just wondering if there was any co-relation to Bury just being the end of the tram line whereas the other two have their own 'proper' station. Though it could also have something to do with the fact the latter two have premier league football clubs which inspire some local pride.

 

[craigwilson]

...Bolton and Wigan...

...the latter two have premier league football clubs which inspire some local pride.

It's not the football club in Wigan's case!! I've never met a Latics fan from Wigan - they're all rugby league fans!!

But your sentiment is probably true enough.

 

[Nym]

Could be more to do with that between Bury and Manchester on a normal drive out or any kind of journey, there isn't really much countryside between them, unlike Bolton where you have to either go up the M61 (Yes the A666(M) and approaches count as M61, coming from the A580 Swinton Interchange), or past Clifton Country Park.The only really suburban routes are via Eccles and Walkden / Farnworth or up the A666 from the A6 in Salford. With Wigan, most of the way down the A58 or A580, and the're pretty countrysided. Where as the likes of Bury, Oldham etc, you never really leave a built up area. Unlike most other boroughs part of the AGMA. Although if you spoke to someone from Denshaw or Diggle they'd say they live in Saddleworth, or Hyde would say Cheshire (although that may just be postcode snobbery).

 

[tbtc]

Same thing is happening in all "city regions" - independent places are becoming effectively part of cities.

In a way its no bad thing because we need public transport to reflect *actual* travel patterns (e.g. Buxton and Glossop are politically part of the East Midlands, but in railway terms are part of the Manchester area).

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Might be different if the Millers Dale and Woodhead lines had remained open.

 

[ivanhoe]

I would imagine that the good folk of Bury would be rather proud of being from Bury . My missus is from Bury , so I have some knowledge of this. Bury his strong links with Bolton as well as Manchester. Accents come into this as well and the Bury accent is very distinctive from the Manchester accent. The substitution of a tram for a train has no effect on it's civic pride. If anything, it has enhanced Burys transport links to the wider train network.

 

[imagination]

How does going from mainline rail station to tram station make somewhere become a part of the centre of the tram network?

Otherwise you could argue that Chipping Ongar became part of London in 1957 because the BR line got replaced by underground trains at that time?

 

[emoaconr]

I always think a similar thing of Birkenhead.

Wheras once it had Woodside station, a terminus from London in its own right, it succombed to posessing a couple of commuter stations on the Merseyrail network with all trains starting or ending in Liverpool.

The creation of Merseyside in 1974 is generally seen as successful - I think Merseyside now has a far greater identity than the previous Liverpool, Lancashire and Birkenhead, Cheshire identities. For me though, I think Halton should have been assigned to Merseyside (and Warrington to Greater Manchester) as it had traditionally been part of Lancashire and Runcorn has greater ties with Liverpool than Chester or anywhere else in Cheshire.

In general, I think that the Metropolitan counties created in the 70s have formed very strong county identities, its just a shame that Thatcher ended their county councils in 86. Despite not having county-wide councils (well, until now as Greater Manchester has just created the GMCA) they continue as legal entities and they are still as strong as ever. If Avon and Cleveland had worked properly, then they too might have had successful identities as the Metropolitan Counties continue to have.

 

[krisk]

I don't think there is much pride associated with Oldham these days, its all about how much of a dive its become, the riots, cheap nights out etc

 

[Greenback]

I don't think that it's anything to do with trams. And I don;t think it's anything to do with the residents of such places as Oldham or Bury.

I think that there may be a perception in people from outside the area that anywhere within Greater Manchester can be called Manchester. A friend had to go to a wedding in Rochdale, and told us she was going to Manchester! It was only late rin the conversation that the true destination emerged!

It's similar to the London situation. I once had to go with my boss to a business event in Enfield. This didn;t stop her from referring to our London meeting for several weeks, despite my efforts toe xplain that Enfield was a seperate town that just happened to be a borough in Greater London.

 

[oglord]

In general, I think that the Metropolitan counties created in the 70s have formed very strong county identities ....they are still as strong as ever

Oh dear God no. People don't need identities creating for them. By all means come up with new metropolitan authorities but keep people's county identities alone! The two are completely separate things after all.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think that it's anything to do with trams. And I don;t think it's anything to do with the residents of such places as Oldham or Bury.

I think that there may be a perception in people from outside the area that anywhere within Greater Manchester can be called Manchester. A friend had to go to a wedding in Rochdale, and told us she was going to Manchester! It was only late rin the conversation that the true destination emerged!

It's similar to the London situation. I once had to go with my boss to a business event in Enfield. This didn;t stop her from referring to our London meeting for several weeks, despite my efforts toe xplain that Enfield was a seperate town that just happened to be a borough in Greater London.

Its true.

I think that part of the problem is that its easy to drop the "Greater" from "Greater London" or "Greater Manchester".

However, I think most people know that Birkenhead (whilst being in Merseyside, which is basically "Greater Liverpool") isn't actually in Liverpool.

Similarly, people don't get as confused about places like Paisley/ Motherwell, because thats the old Strathclyde region and not "Greater Glasgow)*.

I think that if there were a name for the area around the M60 that didn't mention "Manchester" then it'd avoid confusion about what is in the city of Manchester and what lies outside.

The other problem with Manchester is that the boundaries haven't expanded in line with population growth - a similar problem to Nottingham - meaning that Manchester's stats on some indicators look poor because much of the "City of Manchester" is fairly "inner city" - with people moving out to suburbs that are over the border in Tameside/ Salford/ Stockport etc.

(* - now Renfrewshire/ Lanarkshire etc, before anyone gets pedantic)

 

[Greenback]

Its true.

I think that part of the problem is that its easy to drop the "Greater" from "Greater London" or "Greater Manchester".

However, I think most people know that Birkenhead (whilst being in Merseyside, which is basically "Greater Liverpool") isn't actually in Liverpool.

Similarly, people don't get as confused about places like Paisley/ Motherwell, because thats the old Strathclyde region and not "Greater Glasgow)*.

I think that if there were a name for the area around the M60 that didn't mention "Manchester" then it'd avoid confusion about what is in the city of Manchester and what lies outside.

The other problem with Manchester is that the boundaries haven't expanded in line with population growth - a similar problem to Nottingham - meaning that Manchester's stats on some indicators look poor because much of the "City of Manchester" is fairly "inner city" - with people moving out to suburbs that are over the border in Tameside/ Salford/ Stockport etc.

(* - now Renfrewshire/ Lanarkshire etc, before anyone gets pedantic)

I imagine that ther eis a lot of ignorance outside the North West about what and where the city of Manchester is. I can't be the only one that is confused about Tameside!

I agree that if Stratchlyde had been called Greater Glasgow, it would have contributed to a similar problem there.

I await with trepidation the creation of Greater Cardiff, which will no doubt encompass Newport, Barry, Penarth, Caerphilly and Pontypridd, at the very least!

 

[tbtc]

I imagine that ther eis a lot of ignorance outside the North West about what and where the city of Manchester is. I can't be the only one that is confused about Tameside!

I kind of think of "Manchester" as being the horizontal band across the middle of Greater Manchester (Trafford, Salford, City of Manchester, Tameside etc) whilst the areas to the north (Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham) and south (Stockport) aren't Manchester (they are Greater Manchester, of course).

Then again, this may be because I'm basing my assumptions along football lines, where you get the impression that Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham and Stockport are all separate places?

(since the team from Salford call themselves "Manchester" instead of "Salford")

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Am kind of thinking maybe age has something to do with it as well now. Someone born prior to 1974 will have Oldham, Lancs. on their birth certificate whereas after that date it would be Oldham, Gtr Manchester. Although I still do think being a Manchester Tram Stop as opposed to a town with it's own station does somewhat demean and undermine the credibility of a town's identity.

 

[exile]

I always think a similar thing of Birkenhead.

Wheras once it had Woodside station, a terminus from London in its own right, it succombed to posessing a couple of commuter stations on the Merseyrail network with all trains starting or ending in Liverpool.

It might have had a direct service from London but it was a slow one - something like 5 hours in the 1960s. Once the electric services started to Liverpool with times of 2 1/2 hours there was no way anyone was going to go to Birkenhead from Paddington, even with a direct service.I guess Virgin might have run their current Chester services through to Birkenhead if Woodside still existed....

 

[tbtc]

I guess Virgin might have run their current Chester services through to Birkenhead if Woodside still existed....

Thats an interesting point - the population of the Wirral peninsula is a lot bigger than the towns served on the north Wales coast.

 

[142094]

The main positive is that when local authorities group together, they can bid for more money for transport improvements compared to if each seperate LA submitted one. Also, in most city regions, transport problems are ususally created not by that city itself, but the surrounding areas trying to get into that city. E.g. here in Newcastle - congestion is really due to the fact that a lot of people travel into the city centre for employment and leisure from the surrounding areas.

 

[emoaconr]

I imagine that ther eis a lot of ignorance outside the North West about what and where the city of Manchester is. I can't be the only one that is confused about Tameside!

I agree that if Stratchlyde had been called Greater Glasgow, it would have contributed to a similar problem there.

I await with trepidation the creation of Greater Cardiff, which will no doubt encompass Newport, Barry, Penarth, Caerphilly and Pontypridd, at the very least!

The closest definition we have had has always been "Cardiff and the Valleys", in addition to Cardiff/Penarth/Barry within the ceremonial county of "South Glamorgan".

It looks like there could be another Local Govt reform in Wales within the next 10 years also (thankfully as the current system is grossly inefficient).

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Thats an interesting point - the population of the Wirral peninsula is a lot bigger than the towns served on the north Wales coast.

This has been mentioned along with the fact that the the possibility exists for them to run through to a new station over the old Birkenhead Dock Branch that could serve the new Wirral Waters development.

http://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/content/home.php

 

[Greenback]

The closest definition we have had has always been "Cardiff and the Valleys", in addition to Cardiff/Penarth/Barry within the ceremonial county of "South Glamorgan".

It looks like there could be another Local Govt reform in Wales within the next 10 years also (thankfully as the current system is grossly inefficient).

Well, exactly. A traditional county name means the identity of towns like Penarth is not eswallowed up by the neighbouring big city quite as easily to outsiders.

Cardiff has grown a lot over the past two decades, and I think there is a chance that it may merge with other councils to become Greater Cardiff. Though it would be a bad move in my opinion!

 

[IanXC]

The other problem with Manchester is that the boundaries haven't expanded in line with population growth - a similar problem to Nottingham - meaning that Manchester's stats on some indicators look poor because much of the "City of Manchester" is fairly "inner city" - with people moving out to suburbs that are over the border in Tameside/ Salford/ Stockport etc.

Hull has exactly the same problem - http://www.thisishullandeastriding....ull-gets-raw/story-13387722-detail/story.html

 

[pmgarvey]

Its true.

The other problem with Manchester is that the boundaries haven't expanded in line with population growth - a similar problem to Nottingham - meaning that Manchester's stats on some indicators look poor because much of the "City of Manchester" is fairly "inner city" - with people moving out to suburbs that are over the border in Tameside/ Salford/ Stockport etc.

It's a major problem for Manchester City Council too, as except for a few flats in the city centre there's no really affluent areas in the City borough itself (there's a road near here forming the border, with the houses substantially bigger on the Trafford side than the Manchester one). They get far less in council tax than you might expect.

Returning to the original point, most of these civic identities have been on the way out for a while, ask most people under 25 where they come from in any of the satellite towns of Manchester and you'll get the same answer.

Either way let's not try to get politics in the way of good policy making, imagine if improvements to transport were blocked just in case they disrupted civic identity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then again, this may be because I'm basing my assumptions along football lines, where you get the impression that Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham and Stockport are all separate places?.......(since the team from Salford call themselves "Manchester" instead of "Salford")

I cannot for one moment think of which "Salford" club to which you make reference to, as Manchester United play in the area of Trafford, which is one of the ten areas that make up Greater Manchester.

Salford City F.C. (founded in 1940) are the only semi-professional club that play in Salford and their ground, with a capacity of 1,400, is in the district of Kersal. They play in the Northern Premier League, Division One North, and their manager is Rhodri Giggs, the brother of Ryan Giggs who plays for Manchester United.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I cannot for one moment think of which "Salford" club to which you make reference to, as Manchester United play in the area of Trafford, which is one of the ten areas that make up Greater Manchester.

Salford City F.C. (founded in 1940) are the only semi-professional club that play in Salford and their ground, with a capacity of 1,400, is in the district of Kersal. They play in the Northern Premier League, Division One North, and their manager is Rhodri Giggs, the brother of Ryan Giggs who plays for Manchester United.

If you look at Salford as a city in its own right, as it was Old Trafford football ground would have fallen within its boundaries...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you look at Salford as a city in its own right, as it was Old Trafford football ground would have fallen within its boundaries...

I saw this posting and I telephoned one of the historians of Stretford, in whose area the football stadium of Manchester United falls. He suggests that you go back to the person who gave you the erraneous information that the City of Salford ever had claims to this area, as this is a total fallacy.

The area in which the ground is situated, Old Trafford, was originally a hamlet contained within the township of Stretford, which in 1974 became part of the new area called Trafford. Trafford Park Industrial Estate was built on land that is on the southern side of the Manchester Ship Canal and none of that land was ever in Salford.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I saw this posting and I telephoned one of the historians of Stretford, in whose area the football stadium of Manchester United falls. He suggests that you go back to the person who gave you the erraneous information that the City of Salford ever had claims to this area, as this is a total fallacy.

The area in which the ground is situated, Old Trafford, was originally a hamlet contained within the township of Stretford, which in 1974 became part of the new area called Trafford. Trafford Park Industrial Estate was built on land that is on the southern side of the Manchester Ship Canal and none of that land was ever in Salford.

Wow, thanks for that.

Surely by the logic of your original posting, Stockport, Bury and Wigan's respective grounds are all in Manchester...?