Chiltern Railways - Project Evergreen 3

[The Planner]

The route from Princes Risborough to Thame exists completely as it is used as a public footpath called the Phoenix Trail, the oil terminal does not obstruct the line but a level crossing there would need to be rebuilt, the line also exists at the Oxford end as it is used as a freight line by the BMW Mini works, the expensive bit is the crossing of the M40 motorway which has cut the old line in two, there are neighbouring fields to miss out the service station which has taken some of the lines route so that isnt so much an issue.

The cost of re establishing this link was estimated at £250 Million in 2002 prices, clearly Project Evergreen 3 is going to be nowhere near this amount. I do see the Thame/Oxford link being rebuilt but the Bicester chord is a good interim option, plus the East-West link, Aylesburys connection to Milton Keynes and Watford and a Chiltern Metro Service are higher in the priority order.

As i said just above, unless you buldoze a substantial amount of Wheatley, Littleworth and Horspath, its impossible. It has all been built on by housing, and very expensive housing at that. Chiltern are aware of this and arent taking it forward. You would need a very large bridge to cross the M40, then another new one to bridge the existing A40. It just isnt feasible.

 

[gingerheid]

I've read before that P Risborough - Oxford isn't going to happen. It's a pity for Thame that P Risborough - Thame can't happen on it's own Thame isn't that small a place!

 

[route:oxford]

As i said just above, unless you buldoze a substantial amount of Wheatley, Littleworth and Horspath, its impossible. It has all been built on by housing, and very expensive housing at that. Chiltern are aware of this and arent taking it forward. You would need a very large bridge to cross the M40, then another new one to bridge the existing A40. It just isnt feasible.

Just had a look on multimap to remind myself...

It doesn't look too bad in Horspath, a slight skew would do the trick.

Littleworth is completely different though (I had no idea that village was there and have found a handly little rat-run when there is a problem with ladder hill Wheatley). The street name "Beeching Way" is a bit of a clue...

So sadly, unless a new heavy rail line is built on a different alignment via major works (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing) then Oxford to London via Wheatley route won't happen again.

Now Light Rail on the other hand... Large Park and Ride at Oxford Services... Light Rail Princes Risborough, Thame, Park & Ride, Wheatley, Horspath, Mini (also for Business Park), Stadium (also for Science Park), Park & Ride then into town with a spur to Abingdon...

Now that just might work.

 

[The Planner]

I've read before that P Risborough - Oxford isn't going to happen. It's a pity for Thame that P Risborough - Thame can't happen on it's own Thame isn't that small a place!

Haddenham and Thame Pwy is no more than 2-3 miles away. Why bother with another station ??

 

[gingerheid]

Haddenham and Thame Pwy is no more than 2-3 miles away. Why bother with another station ??

Because 2-3 miles across Countryside is enough to make a lot of people not bother (and certainly takes a station outwith walking distance!)

 

[Chafford1]

From what I've read elsewhere, the 168s are no longer going to be re-engined. Instead money will be spend on further track enhancements - Aynho, Northolt and Neasden junctions were mentioned as was Gerrards Cross station.

 

[The Planner]

Makes sense I suppose as the infrastructure wouldnt need to be wholly funded by them. Aynho flyover isnt going to be cheap though !

 

[PhilipW]

Instead money will be spend on further track enhancements - Aynho, Northolt and Neasden junctions were mentioned as was Gerrards Cross station.

What exactly are these possible enhancements at Aynho, Northolt and Neasden ? What is the matter with Aynho flyover at the moment ?

 

[The Planner]

The fact you could be going 100mph in your 168 and then have to slow to 50mph across the bridge, or 85mph on your WSMR and have to slow to 25mph,, thats whats wrong with Aynho flyover.

 

[paul1609]

I had always assumed that the 50 mph over the bridge was because of the very slow junction after (30 mph)?
In my experience a lot of Chiltern services wait here for 2 or 3 mins for their path anyway.

 

[The Planner]

If that was the case, then why does anything above a 168 have to go 25 ?? its not the junction.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

I went to the Chiltern exhibition on Project Evergreen 3 at Bicester yesterday. I raised a few of the points from this thread with the Chiltern staff and thought that I would post them here.

Out of interest. Has the Wolvercote tunnel always been singled? Or was it rebuilt during road improvements?

Wolvercote Tunnel was originally built as double track, however it will remain as a single line under the new scheme. East-West Rail are pushing for W10 gauge for future freight services and this is only possible if the tunnel remains single tracked. The double tracking will therefore run from Bicester to a point half-way between the new station at Water Eaton Parkway station and Wolvercote Tunnel (approximately at the site of the current Pear Tree P&R). The new route will then be single tracked from there all the way into Oxford. Oxford North Junction will be retained, but a new track will be added on the east side of the Cherwell Valley Line, allowing Chiltern to access a new platform to be built on the site of the old parcels depot. All signalling (including signals and points in the new platforms at Oxford will be controlled from Marylebone).

The chord between the Oxford-Bicester line and the Chiltern Main Line will be double tracked with a line speed of 40 mph. In connection with this work, through roads will be reinstated at Princes Risborough, a new turnback provided at Gerrards Cross and four tracking reinstated between West and South Ruislip stations. Linespeeds will be raised (where possible) to 100 mph.

 

[Metroland]

TRAIN services from Birmingham to London will be slashed by up to 20 minutes on Chiltern services.

The company, which runs services from Snow Hill to Marylebone, will reduce its service from 120 minutes to 100 minutes as part of the Evergreen 3 Project.

Evergreen 3 will involve constructing a connecting rail line south of Bicester where Chiltern’s London to Birmingham line crosses over the proposed East-West line which will run between Oxford and Milton Keynes.

A Chiltern Trains spokeswoman said: “As part of the Evergreen 3 project we anticipate running trains at 20 minutes less than the current travelling time to London Marylebone.

“Part of this work will involve doubling the track on parts of the route and this will allow us to reduce the time of the service from 120 minutes to 100 minutes.”

Evergreen 3 is the latest in a series of service improvements which are being implemented as part of the train company’s 20 year franchise.

It was preceded by Evergreen 1, which comprised of 18 miles of track doubling between Bicester and Aynho, near Banbury, and Evergreen 2, which included various measures to improve line speed, extra signalling between London and Bicester and two extra platforms at London Marylebone which were completed in 2006.

Evergreen 3 will involve constructing a connecting line south of Bicester, upgrading from east of Bicester Town station to Oxford, restoring double track in the area and installing new signalling and safety systems.

Bicester Town and Islip stations will be rebuilt and additional platforms provided at Oxford, while a new station will be constructed near Water Eaton to serve Kidlington and North Oxford.

Chiltern hopes to begin construction work in 2011 and start running services between Marylebone and Oxford in 2013. The work will be funded by the train company.

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...to-london-times-by-20-minutes-97319-23412610/

http://www.chiltern-evergreen3.co.uk/

 

[williamn]

Can Chiltern just take over all the franchises please?

 

[tbtc]

Can Chiltern just take over all the franchises please?

They're having a good go.

Under BR it was just the slow way of going London - Birmingham, so offered little competition to other franchises.

Now, they've carved a decent share of that market with their cheap fares (competing with Virgin and London Midland)...

they are going to run London - Oxford (competing with First Great Western)...

...they have proposed London - Bletchley (& Milton Keynes? - competing with Virgin and London Midland)...

...their owners own a large share of Wrexham and Shrewsbury (competing with Virgin and ATW for ORCATS money)...

...what next? They're certainly quite agressive about expansion - I can't think of another TOC that has expanded/ proposed such expansion from it's BR guise.

 

[The Planner]

Bletchley is going to be an interesting one. As the current plans stand with Bletchly re-sig and re-model, there isnt going to be a platform on the flyover anymore, and I can't see how Chiltern could get into the station without a reverse move. I also cannot see the Keynes being a viable option either.

 

[tbtc]

I also cannot see the Keynes being a viable option either.

Is it still on their "to do" list?

Personally, if they do then it'd be much better if that was an Oxford - MK service, rather than "competition" to/from London.

Incidently, are FGW going to come off the Bicester line if Chiltern start? I've never seen confirmation of this.

 

[fgwrich]

Now Light Rail on the other hand... Large Park and Ride at Oxford Services... Light Rail Princes Risborough, Thame, Park & Ride, Wheatley, Horspath, Mini (also for Business Park), Stadium (also for Science Park), Park & Ride then into town with a spur to Abingdon...

Now that just might work.

HHHMMMMM....

Not let me think...

A Good idea for a Tram Train Eh?

Afterall, If Heavy rail could never return to that line, Tram Trains could then have the advantage of on street running in those places where Heavy Rail just can't go, and with a Tram Train... It could then even go into central Oxford to the station... Aftertall, if this was Germany something like that would proberley happen...

Just a pity that where Network Rail's going over to the Tram Train idea, well ive got to stay that er... The Pennistone line is one of the worst places to do so... And a pity that my local council dosent think so... - Hampshire County Councils going to be building the former Heavy Rail Fareham to Gosport route into a bl**dy guided busway despite the fact i warned them itll go the same way as Cambridge... I Even told them to go to Croyden and see the trams !

Mind you - at least Network West Midlands see so, as i belive they are considering Tram Trains at last for the extention of the West Mids tram...

Also TBTC... That i dont know... but with Chiltern intoducing such a impulsive timetable, think First Great Western are almost being forced of one of there lines... obvisouly i can image there working togher on it though...

Theres one thing i cant quite work out yet... If & when the East - West route does get reinstated, Who will run he services on it ???

Afterall, from Oxford to Cambridge, it would encroach onto FGW's, Chilterns,London Midland/Virgin,EMT,First Capital Connect, First Capital Connect, Nat Ex East Coast, First Capital Connect, EMT, Nat Ex East Coast & First Capital Connect again...

 

[Geezertronic]

Are there any plans to electrify the Chiltern Line?

 

[tbtc]

Theres one thing i cant quite work out yet... If & when the East - West route does get reinstated, Who will run he services on it ???

Afterall, from Oxford to Cambridge, it would encroach onto FGW's, Chilterns,London Midland/Virgin,EMT,First Capital Connect, First Capital Connect, Nat Ex East Coast, First Capital Connect, EMT, Nat Ex East Coast & First Capital Connect again...

Well, the Oxford - Bicester FGW service and the Bletchley - Bedford LM service are both "self contained" these days, so they should be relatively easy to "split" from the existing TOCs.

However, it depends on the route beyond Bedford, and whether the line would *only* be for Oxford - Bedford trains, or whether we'd see other services on them too.

Remember that a few years ago, there was a Bristol - Oxford - Bicester service.

 

[Mojo]

I'm sure LM would be quite happy to get rid of the Bedford service, it can't be too efficient to send 150s down there from Tyseley every now and again.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm sure LM would be quite happy to get rid of the Bedford service, it can't be too efficient to send 150s down there from Tyseley every now and again.

3 dedicated 153s now.

 

[Mojo]

3 dedicated 153s now.

Not always, as I've seen two different 150s on it recently, and are they all based at BY - I'd have thought they at least return to Tyseley occasionally.

 

[fgwrich]

Not always, as I've seen two different 150s on it recently, and are they all based at BY - I'd have thought they at least return to Tyseley occasionally.

Not quite...

From what i gather, When London Midland took over from Sliverlink, London Midland thought it would make good sense to convert services on that route to 153's... But, as Sliverlink had previously operated 150's on that route in partnership with the The Bedford to Bletchley Rail Users' Association & The Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership, they then kicked up a storm and in the end, London Midland are now running services with 153's and 150's...

Parlty because there are quite a few schools served along that route and as 150's have a larger Cycle Space... then thats why the 150's were the obvisous choice to remian... Compared to a possibly full & standing Dogbox, where Bycylces can only be brought on at one end...

Although i love the Dogboxes... You cant beet a 150 on that route...

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Incidently, are FGW going to come off the Bicester line if Chiltern start? I've never seen confirmation of this.

I asked Chiltern this same question on Friday (at the Bicester exhibition). The FGW franchise is due to run until late summer 2013, so it will end a few months after the Oxford-Marylebone service starts. Chiltern would probably need to buy FGW out for the period May-September, but the compensation due will probably be minimal, because of the current level of subsidy for the Oxford-Bicester shuttle. DfT will remove Oxford-Bicester from the next Greater Western franchise specification.

 

[Mojo]

DfT will remove Oxford-Bicester from the next Greater Western franchise specification.

They don't even need to wait until the end of the franchise. The Service Level Commitment is updated throughout the life of the franchise.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Chiltern are the best company in britain now doubt about it, they should take over most of the WCML franchise, it will be a well needed upgarde, the service is immaculate, i was at South Ruislip one day and the service was supposed to come in at 16:47:17 and it came in, at exactly that time, i think thats how all TOCs should be run and thier fleet interior is amazing, its what travel on trains in Britain should be like, a fine example.

 

[fgwrich]

Chiltern are the best company in britain now doubt about it...

Tend to agree on most points but theres still a few things that get me with Chiltern... Including things like why do 165's still run to Brum and why is the Stratford Upon Avon service still soley run with 165s?...

Mind you... Tell you one DMU that i wish Chiltern would consider getting... Irish Rail spec 22000's... on say a London - Birmingham Moor Street express service - easy way to compete with VT & London Midland then and doubling the services on the Birmingham route but one can only dream of it...

But id actually say the best 2 operaters around now are Chiltern Railways & First Great Western... Afterall, where as pretty much everyone bar Virgin & First Group who Operate Intercity >125mph< services in and out of london are axing Resturant & Buffet Facilities, at least FGW has decided that its not going to do so, and is instead increasing the number of Travelling Chef services, adding mini buffets to certain HST sets and refurbishing the remaining Buffet Cars that wont be replaced by a mini buffet... And they are pretty much the most improved franchise in the country in such a short time, refurbished a complete complete fleet in 2 1/2 years , to such a high quility... And unlike my other local TOC's, Fares have been reduced by First Great Western this year !!! Beet that South West Trains !!!!!!!

The only niggel i have with both TOC's though... and this actually also is for all TOC's really... Why is it none of them provide rugby specials !!!

I Support both London Wasps & London Irish, yet FGW still runs the usal 2 Car 165 down the branch to Basingstoke... which can get very full & standing on special match days... Chiltern on the otherhand are slightly better, becasue of High Wycombe's position on the Chiltern Mainline so it gets 168's etc... But still the arriva times dont match with the free bus shuttle to Adams Park:roll: As for SWT & Twickenham... Despite that fact Twickenham still has its bay Platform... its not even used apart from Stabiling... Why cant SWT have special Waterloo - Twickenham services ??? Surely come common sense would be nice... Afterall, They can provide Football:roll: Specials... so why cant Rugby specials be in? or just retimmed or extended services???

rich

 

[thefab444]

SWT do provide Waterloo - Twickenham services for rugby, calling at Clapham Junction only. FGW are also almost completely pulling their restaurant service on HSTs apparently, although Travelling Chefs are being retained. And I wouldn't call their HST refurbishment "high quality", the seats are awful.

 

[A0]

Are there any plans to electrify the Chiltern Line?

None have been mentioned.

There is a bit of a problem in that one of their routes is actually part of the Underground (Amersham - Harrow). Not sure how amenable LUL would be to 25kv installation.

Also, not sure whether the tunnels on the approach to Marylebone have enough clearance? I'm sure I'd read that HSTs couldn't operate through to Marylebone because of clearance issues.

Assuming the Marylebone approach isn't an issue, they could electrify the Ruislip, Wycombe route. Not sure it's on the cards at the moment.

More likely is that the GWML will be electrified to Reading and Oxford which would allow 165s to be cascaded onto Chiltern to strengthen services.