Chiltern Railways Business Zone

[williamn]

Does anyone know how you go about booking this? I can't see any options for it when booking via their website!

 

[telstarbox]

You can book it at a station or pay the upgrade on board the train.

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/faq/on-board-our-trains

 

[gray1404]

Are first class tickets valid in the business Zone?

 

[Starmill]

It's thought to be the case that they are, but Chiltern are a bit coy about it. Perhaps understandably given the NRT does not show First Class Accommodation for any of their services, so they probably don't get any money from the sale of First Class tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's thought to be the case that they are, but Chiltern are a bit coy about it. Perhaps understandably given the NRT does not show First Class Accommodation for any of their services, so they probably don't get any money from the sale of First Class tickets.

This is all very silly; I don't see why they don't get First Class advertised for those services. It's not as if that would stop them doing the supplement, or running a batch job to create a load of First Class fares at <standard fare + £25/£10>. I know they politically don't want to call it First Class, but nor do ATW and that still is First Class in the timetable.

 

[postye]

Are first class tickets valid in the business Zone?

When planning for my ALR last year I emailed Chiltern to ask this question and they wrote back the following

"I can confirm that 1st Class tickets which are valid between stations on our route can be used in the Business Zone without incurring any further costs."

HTH

 

[bb21]

This is all very silly; I don't see why they don't get First Class advertised for those services. It's not as if that would stop them doing the supplement, or running a batch job to create a load of First Class fares at <standard fare + £25/£10>. I know they politically don't want to call it First Class, but nor do ATW and that still is First Class in the timetable.

But won't the tickets print with "1ST" annotation rather than "STD" annotation? I suppose that is what most finance departments go by.

I quite like the East Coast approach if Chiltern can be bothered to price their own all-inclusive packages

 

[Bletchleyite]

But won't the tickets print with "1ST" annotation rather than "STD" annotation? I suppose that is what most finance departments go by.

Fair point. Though TBH I'd consider I was defrauding my employer if I used the business zone against a no-First-Class policy, as it clearly *is* First Class in any meaningful sense.

I quite like the East Coast approach if Chiltern can be bothered to price their own all-inclusive packages

"Standard class with a free First Class upgrade"? Expenses fraud pure and simple.

 

[bb21]

Fair point. Though TBH I'd consider I was defrauding my employer if I used the business zone against a no-First-Class policy, as it clearly *is* First Class in any meaningful sense.

"Standard class with a free First Class upgrade"? Expenses fraud pure and simple.

You are very honest Neil.

Yes, of course the East Coast one was created mainly to bypass such restrictions.

 

[John @ home]

I'd consider I was defrauding my employer if I used the business zone against a no-First-Class policy

The Business Zone has been designed to fit within many employer's business travel policies. These employers are content to reimburse the cost of Wi-Fi and non-alcoholic refreshments during a journey but not the cost of First Class travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Business Zone has been designed to fit within many employer's business travel policies. These employers are content to reimburse the cost of Wi-Fi and non-alcoholic refreshments during a journey but not the cost of First Class travel.

£25 is steep for those two things alone, which is one reason I consider it First Class. The off peak £10 might well fit, though.

 

[Clip]

This is all very silly; I don't see why they don't get First Class advertised for those services. It's not as if that would stop them doing the supplement, or running a batch job to create a load of First Class fares at <standard fare + £25/£10>. I know they politically don't want to call it First Class, but nor do ATW and that still is First Class in the timetable.

If they called them 1st class then those in the rather posh area closer to London would cry about them not getting 1st class and how it was mean of Chiltern to remove 1st class fares years ago.

This way they can offer the premium to those on longer journeys without upsetting people again.

 

[williamn]

Chiltern's Twitter people tell me it can be booked online but I can't see any option for this!

 

[telstarbox]

Is there anything in the railway regulations which defines what can and can't be considered First Class? I'm guessing not as Virgin had three travel classes in the early days.

 

[NottsPhil]

Just to confirm I was on a first class ALR last week and used the Chiltern Business Zone without any problems. Indeed, one train didn't have it, and the conductor apologised and said I could go and get a free drink from the static trolley, but as it was five carriages away I didn't bother!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there anything in the railway regulations which defines what can and can't be considered First Class? I'm guessing not as Virgin had three travel classes in the early days.

It sort of did and didn't. You had first (gold zone) and standard (purple zone) but then you had the blue zone, which had a varying amount of Standard and First capacity and was open to Standard Open ticket holders plus Weekend First (which in BR days was only in coach G, not throughout trains as it is now). Some argued it was unenforceable, it was certainly confusing!

Voyagers were said to have been designed for 3 classes hence 3 disabled bogs, but that didn't happen - though now we have the hybrid coach which is a kind of middle class.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In the days of Intercity you had first class, standard class and silver standard class. The perks of silver standard included a dedicated carriage, free refreshments and newspapers.

Chiltern Railways can call their Business Zone whatever they want to call it. They don't want to call it first class. I imagine this is for very good business reasons- they don't have to share upgrades with other TOCs- and I don't see the issue. They let first class ticket holders sit there for free and they encourage upgrades from people who are barred from first class tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern Railways can call their Business Zone whatever they want to call it. They don't want to call it first class. I imagine this is for very good business reasons- they don't have to share upgrades with other TOCs- and I don't see the issue. They let first class ticket holders sit there for free and they encourage upgrades from people who are barred from first class tickets.

I'm sure they can, but I think it's questionable why they should when you consider we do just about have a national rail network with certain common standards.

And I would still be quite cross if I were an employer, and an employee attempted to pull wool over my eyes with this kind of thing, particularly the East Coast version. Standard ticket with a free upgrade to First? Fraud. Pure and simple.

(I don't think, though, that I'd outright ban First Class, it would depend on what productivity level was needed during the journey)

 

[anme]

(I don't think, though, that I'd outright ban First Class, it would depend on what productivity level was needed during the journey)

And, I hope, the price of the ticket. I once worked for a company that banned all first/business class travel, even when it was cheaper. I travelled a lot and managed my own travel budget. Several times, I was forced to pay extra for standard/economy class.

 

[Haywain]

In the days of Intercity you had first class, standard class and silver standard class. The perks of silver standard included a dedicated carriage, free refreshments and newspapers.

That survived into privatisation. GNER had 'Standard Plus' which operated on pretty much the same basis and lasted into the early 21st century.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And, I hope, the price of the ticket. I once worked for a company that banned all first/business class travel, even when it was cheaper. I travelled a lot and managed my own travel budget. Several times, I was forced to pay extra for standard/economy class.

Yes, but only based on the required flexibility. So, if an Advance was acceptable, the comparison is with a Standard Advance, whereas if flexibility is needed, a First Anytime/First Off Peak would be the relevant comparison. A lot of people compare walk-up Standard fares with Advance First Class fares, and that comparison I see as irrelevant unless it's only being made because there are no Standard Advance fares on the relevant train(s).

I'd also allow First Class if the employee wanted to travel in their own time to get a First Class fare that was cheaper than the Standard one at the time they'd be travelling for business need.

Basically, my whole view on expenses is "act as a reasonable person would with their own money, and don't take the mick". I see those East Coast tickets as blatently taking the mick, as is Chiltern and ATW's so-called "Business Class". That said, it's an easy one to write a policy around - "travel must be in the lowest class available on the services concerned, unless a higher class of ticket with the required degree of flexibility for the business is found to be cheaper", with some other get-outs.

 

[Hadders]

That said, it's an easy one to write a policy around - "travel must be in the lowest class available on the services concerned, unless a higher class of ticket with the required degree of flexibility for the business is found to be cheaper", with some other get-outs.

I'm glad I don't work for you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm glad I don't work for you!

I'm not an employer, but it's near enough the policy of my employer, and I don't have a problem with it at all. First Class fares are often excessively high and do not carry a sufficient business benefit. In most cases, Standard is quite acceptable.

If they were 1.5-1.6x the relevant Standard fare at all times, not only would I probably default to buying them myself, I'd rather relax my view on them for business purposes.

 

[Hadders]

We are risk of drifting off topic but I think it alo depends on the journey being undertaken.

I live in Hertfordshire and used to work for an employer based in Manchester. Often I would need to be in Manchester for a meeting at 0900. Leaving home at 0530, driving to Milton Keynes and catching the 0647 to Piccadilly which arrives at 0828 was a journey I became familiar with.

I often went first class because it saved my employer the cost of a hotel room, meant I could eat properly and do some work on the train. If I'd had to go standard I'd probably have travelled the day before and been unproductive that afternoon too as a result.

Strictly speaking it wasn't allowed but it was the right thing to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd have happily travelled Standard on that journey. Indeed, I've done journeys like that and travelled Standard. But I do wish that some businesses would be a bit more sensible about arranging meetings to properly accommodate those travelling from further away.

Air travel is a bit different; I can see the justification for offering an employee a choice between an overnight flight in Business Class and straight to work, or one in Economy and a day off. Personally I'd choose the latter as I can't sleep on planes in whatever class (I have flown Business once). But I would if at all possible go for the third option of a daytime flight.

(I'm afraid VT First Anytime tickets are so outrageously priced that I couldn't buy one with a straight face, whether it was for me or for business)

One I have done is Birmingham International to MKC in First on LM rather than Standard on VT - I took a longer journey in my own time in order to get a seat, basically. ISTR the LM ticket was cheaper than the Standard one on VT.

 

[sheff1]

I'm sure they can, but I think it's questionable why they should when you consider we do just about have a national rail network with certain common standards.

Do we ?

What is badged as 'First Class' varies so widely across operators in terms of both the actual accomodation and the 'added benefits' (if any) that I see no common standards.

 

[John @ home]

if I were an employer, and an employee attempted to pull wool over my eyes with this kind of thing, particularly the East Coast version. Standard ticket with a free upgrade to First? Fraud. Pure and simple.

This is not the first time you have given this opinion, and I still don't understand it.

Who do you think has committed fraud: the train company, the employer or the employee?

When I was a Trustee of an NGO, I was asked to authorise expenditure on a combined ticket which included First Class rail travel and a meal. The organisation did not reimburse First Class rail travel unless this was reasonable in the circumstances. It was demonstrated to me that in this instance the cost of the combined ticket was

• greater than the cost of the cheapest available Second Class ticket for that journey on that date at that time, but
• lower than the cost of that Second Class ticket plus the organisation's dinner allowance, which the person would have been able to claim had they made the journey using a Second Class ticket.

On that basis, I authorised the expenditure. Where was the fraud?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is not the first time you have given this opinion, and I still don't understand it.

Who do you think has committed fraud: the train company, the employer or the employee?

The employee, if they use such a ticket where their company does not permit First Class travel, but the TOC is complicit in it by issuing a ticket that isn't what it says it is.

When I was a Trustee of an NGO, I was asked to authorise expenditure on a combined ticket which included First Class rail travel and a meal. The organisation did not reimburse First Class rail travel unless this was reasonable in the circumstances. It was demonstrated to me that in this instance the cost of the combined ticket was

• greater than the cost of the cheapest available Second Class ticket for that journey on that date at that time, but
• lower than the cost of that Second Class ticket plus the organisation's dinner allowance, which the person would have been able to claim had they made the journey using a Second Class ticket.

On that basis, I authorised the expenditure. Where was the fraud?

None in that case, because your organisation didn't have an "absolutely no first class" policy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do we ?

Yes, certainly to the extent that trains have one or two classes, and if they have two one of them is called First Class and appears with a [1] in the timetable, and if not so appearing (assuming no stock substitution) the train is of one class throughout.

 

[sheff1]

Yes, certainly to the extent that trains have one or two classes, and if they have two one of them is called First Class and appears with a [1] in the timetable, and if not so appearing (assuming no stock substitution) the train is of one class throughout.

Ah, so you are talking about a number in a timetable rather than what one might find on board the train. By common standards I had assumed you were talking about something like the old 'EuroCity' specifications which mandated minimum standards to be met across a range of operators.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I am presently the treasurer of a charitable organisation and would agree with Neil on this matter. The ticket being described as standard, first, or standard with a free upgrade is immaterial - the fact of the matter is that the organisation desires to pay for transport and a meal, and that this is a suitably priced way of achieving this.

Were it decided that a volunteer's meal on a journey would be their own responsibility, I would not agree to buy that ticket instead of an equivalent standard class ticket.