Chiltern line Electrification

[MatthewRead]

I know it maybe a little too soon but recently I've read the Chiltern Main line is due for electrification in the early 2020s and that it could get a standardized fleet of bi-mode units if so please clarify.

 

[D365]

I know it maybe a little too soon...

Yep, maybe a little too soon for Network Rail

 

[RobShipway]

I know it maybe a little too soon but recently I've read the Chiltern Main line is due for electrification in the early 2020s and that it could get a standardized fleet of bi-mode units if so please clarify.

This is just my own view but given the Electrification problems with the GWML and other electrification projects, I do not see the Chiltern Main line being electrified much before 2026 at the earliest, so would expect that questions on rolling stock probably would not be asked until 2024 giving the manufacturer time to build the new bi-mode trains, unless an existing design is going to be used.

 

[The Planner]

You'll be lucky, CP8 at the earliest so 2029 2030.

 

[Harbornite]

The 165s are growing a bit long in the tooth but the majority of the stock used by Chiltern, namely the 168s (just about) and the 172s are quite modern. The mark 3s are fairly old but have been recently overhauled and refurbished so they might as well be considered modern. Likewise, London Midland's fleet of class 172s only date from 2011 and the oldest stock they use on their services on this route are the 153s and these aren't used on many Snow Hill services.

With all this relatively modern stock knocking about, there isn't a pressing need to electrify the chiltern line. However, as has been mentioned by Philip Phlopp elsewhere, Chiltern electrification could tie in to and be an extension of Electric spine electrification, which will see wires going up between Nuneaton, Leamington, Banbury, Oxford, Reading and Southampton.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 165s are growing a bit long in the tooth but the majority of the stock used by Chiltern, namely the 168s (just about) and the 172s are quite modern.

Given that the Northern franchise award has affirmed the continued use in front line service of class 150s of 1985 vintage until 2025 and inevitably into at least the first few years of the successor franchise, I don't think that we need even worry about the longevity of Chiltern's 1991 built class 165 stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

Suggest this thread be entered in the 'bring up diary' for September 2026...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Chiltern franchise ends in Dec 2021, and nothing much is going to happen till then.
Electrification will be linked to XC and West Midlands wiring Birmingham-Oxford (electric spine-ish) which is still in the melting pot for CP6.
It doesn't look as though there is a rush to wire Snow Hill routes.
On top of all that, the end of the Chiltern franchise is just into the next parliament, and who knows what the policy will be then.
XC is rebid in 2019, which might be a better guide as to what the thinking is.
Meanwhile, bi-mode experience elsewhere will have a bearing (Hitachi, Stadler).

 

[richieb1971]

There is a long queue of electrification projects with anticipation quite high for the ones much higher up the queue being done yesterday.

When the EWR gets electrified i'd expect a thread like this to materialize.

I've heard nothing but great things about the express trains on the Chiltern line thus far (nice ride, quiet ride etc).

 

[FordFocus]

The East Midlands electrification will probably take priority first after the Great Western is eventually completed.

Bi Mode will be the interim when the rolling stock needs to be replaced which from be until the next Chiltern franchise. Think the end of 2021 the current franchise expires, if it doesn't get an extension.

 

[D365]

Bi Mode will be the interim when the rolling stock needs to be replaced which from be until the next Chiltern franchise. Think the end of 2021 the current franchise expires, if it doesn't get an extension.

If GWR replaces some of their (now bi-mode) 801s with 'pure' electric units once GWeP is finally completed, perhaps a bidder for the Chiltern franchise will secure a deal on some of these units?

Or is that complete wibble on my part?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The 165s are growing a bit long in the tooth but the majority of the stock used by Chiltern, namely the 168s (just about) and the 172s are quite modern. The mark 3s are fairly old but have been recently overhauled and refurbished so they might as well be considered modern. Likewise, London Midland's fleet of class 172s only date from 2011 and the oldest stock they use on their services on this route are the 153s and these aren't used on many Snow Hill services.

Given that the Northern franchise award has affirmed the continued use in front line service of class 150s of 1985 vintage until 2025 and inevitably into at least the first few years of the successor franchise, I don't think that we need even worry about the longevity of Chiltern's 1991 built class 165 stock.

It's more to do with the speed of the 165s than the age of them, functionally they are fine and they have been extensively refurbished. Running a 75mph train on a 100mph two track railway is a problem though and since Evergreen 3 (circa 2011, so the same time as 172s were entering service) the Chiltern line is pretty much 100mph all the way between Solihull and Wembley.
Having a fleet of fast accelerating 100mph 172s instead of the 165s would probably work wonders for the suburban and semi fast services between London and Banbury.

I know there are issues with 172s, the Met line and tripcocks but we put a man on the moon so I'm sure we could figure out how to attach a tripcock to a 172 if we really needed to.

 

[Harbornite]

If GWR replaces some of their (now bi-mode) 801s with 'pure' electric units once GWeP is finally completed, perhaps a bidder for the Chiltern franchise will secure a deal on some of these units?

Or is that complete wibble on my part?

The Chiltern franchisee could just order new fully electric AT300s, or whatever the next best EMU is by the time the line is electrified. Siemens Verve, anyone?

 

[D365]

The Chiltern franchisee could just order new fully electric AT300s, or whatever the next best EMU is by the time the line is electrified. Siemens Verve, anyone?

Just an idea to make use of some units whose diesel capability will be going spare (eventually).

I know there are issues with 172s, the Met line and tripcocks but we put a man on the moon so I'm sure we could figure out how to attach a tripcock to a 172 if we really needed to.

We've been through this recently on a different topic (it's near enough impossible to do with their inside-frame bogies), in any case new-build 172s are no longer available.

 

[jopsuk]

how much work would it be to convert the 165/0s to 90mph specification like their Thames Valley /1 siblings?

 

[Harbornite]

Just an idea to make use of some units whose diesel capability will be going spare (eventually).

I don't think Chiltern would have a need for bi-mode stock as much as say... Crosscountry.

 

[43074]

Just an idea to make use of some units whose diesel capability will be going spare (eventually).

Isn't it possible to remove the diesel engine from the bi-modes to make them fully electric? I thought that was one of the supposed benefits of the bi-mode trains in the first place.

 

[J-2739]

Isn't it possible to remove the diesel engine from the bi-modes to make them fully electric? I thought that was one of the supposed benefits of the bi-mode trains in the first place.

Yes, it's possible with the Hitachi bi-modes to remove or install engines into the units.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Chiltern franchisee could just order new fully electric AT300s, or whatever the next best EMU is by the time the line is electrified. Siemens Verve, anyone?

What's the point of buying 125/140mph-capable EMUs when you only need 100mph?
An East Anglia solution is more likely.
Anyway, it's at least 5 years too early for the debate.
Remember HS2 will have transformed the London-Birmingham market by 2026.
It's probably more important what happens to the XC operation on the route (plus E-W).
There will also probably be Marylebone-Milton Keynes services to consider.

 

[Harbornite]

What's the point of buying 125/140mph-capable EMUs when you only need 100mph?
An East Anglia solution is more likely.
Anyway, it's at least 5 years too early for the debate.
Remember HS2 will have transformed the London-Birmingham market by 2026.
It's probably more important what happens to the XC operation on the route (plus E-W).
There will also probably be Marylebone-Milton Keynes services to consider.

Well that's not strictly true for XC, their trains operate on some stretches of track with 125mph speed limits. Either way, they could do with a bi-mode EMU with a 125mph top speed.

 

[Chester1]

The MML is due to be electrified to Sheffield by 2022. This will free up the Meridians. From 2026 most if not all of WCML Voyagers will be freed up because of HS2. By 2026 there wil potentially be be 47 Merdians and Voyagers that could be cascaded to Chiltern, which would decrease journey times without needing any infrastructure upgrades. I would be surprised if Chiltern electrificatiom was started before 2030.

 

[route:oxford]

I don't think Chiltern would have a need for bi-mode stock as much as say... Crosscountry.

It would certainly make salami electrification a possibility.

 

[3141]

One important factor is the cost of electrification. GWML has worked out much more expensive than originally thought. Meanwhile, oil prices have gone down. If electrification remains anywhere near as expensive as it is currently, oil prices will have to rise substantially to make the business case for electrification a sound one again. Electrifying the route from Marylebone may be forced to wait until it can be justified as a large-scale infill project.

 

[Helvellyn]

Unless I missed it I'm surprised everyone is going on about bi-mode stock if electrification happens rather than mentioning dual-voltage stock! There is a chunk of the Chiltern network shared with the Met, so having something that can run on overhead and fourth rail will be a requirement there. I say fourth rail, but it could be third rail if LUL modify the fourth rail to work how it does on say the District between East Putney and Wimbledon (although that still requires dual-voltage stock AND LUL to modify their infrastructure).

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes but the Chiltern Main Line isn't shared with the Met which is what the OP was talking about.

 

[edwin_m]

Unless I missed it I'm surprised everyone is going on about bi-mode stock if electrification happens rather than mentioning dual-voltage stock! There is a chunk of the Chiltern network shared with the Met, so having something that can run on overhead and fourth rail will be a requirement there. I say fourth rail, but it could be third rail if LUL modify the fourth rail to work how it does on say the District between East Putney and Wimbledon (although that still requires dual-voltage stock AND LUL to modify their infrastructure).

Another option might be to cut the Metropolitan back to Watford via the slow lines only from Harrow to Moor Park. That would give total segregation between the Chiltern and the Met, so they could have their own electrification systems and avoid most of the earthing problems of dual electrification.

If this doesn't happen then on the question of tripcocks, once the Met is re-signalled these will be redundant for LU stock. It ought to be fairly easy to wire up some ERTMS balises or TPWS loops (or Chiltern ATP balises, but probably not recommended) to perform the same function for the Chiltern stock. That way new stock would not need to have tripcocks.

 

[mr_jrt]

Another option might be to cut the Metropolitan back to Watford via the slow lines only from Harrow to Moor Park. That would give total segregation between the Chiltern and the Met, so they could have their own electrification systems and avoid most of the earthing problems of dual electrification.

Quite.

I've discussed this to death before, but the wider issues are basically the platform capacity at Marylebone (can't put a quart into a pint pot), the connections between Rickmansworth and Watford, given the interchange issues with Moor Park (i.e. it's not a major enough station to warrant Chiltern stopping there), and so on.

The solution for Marylebone is to divert the Chiltern Mainline suburban services to the NNML, thence either West Ealing for Crossrail, OOC for Crossrail, or as a Crossrail extension itself. That would free up capacity for enhanced services via Amersham.

As for Rickmansworth...I suspect "North Curve" services are required here, but I don't know if that means a reinstated bay at Rickmansworth, (assuming the point is eventual AC electrification) a dual voltage service from Cheshem/Aylesbury to Watford, or a short one station stub of Met line terminating at Rickmansworth on an extended 4-track section.

 

[The Planner]

The suburbans are more likely to stay at Marylebone with some of the long distance going to OOC via Park Royal.

 

[mr_jrt]

The suburbans are more likely to stay at Marylebone with some of the long distance going to OOC via Park Royal.

I just can't see where they would find the platforms at OOC for terminating services, especially longer "mainline" services. A Crossrail extension is the only thing that makes long-term sense to me. High Wycombe to West Ealing is suitable in the short term as a diesel Crossrail feeder service, but longer term an electric full-sized Crossrail extension to Aylesbury (or even Milton Keynes via EWR?) via High Wycombe would free up the most capacity at Marylebone.

 

[Kettledrum]

The MML is due to be electrified to Sheffield by 2022. This will free up the Meridians. From 2026 most if not all of WCML Voyagers will be freed up because of HS2. By 2026 there wil potentially be be 47 Merdians and Voyagers that could be cascaded to Chiltern, which would decrease journey times without needing any infrastructure upgrades. I would be surprised if Chiltern electrificatiom was started before 2030.

cascaded to Chilton?????

I assumed that they would be more likely to go to XC