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Chiltern electrification alternatives being studied...

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Bletchleyite

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Depends on who the government is and what their priorities are. I would be surprised if either Labour or the Tories would outright commit to keeping diesels running after 2050...

I'd be surprised if there weren't Classes 195, 196 and 197 running after 2050 to be honest, i.e. the whole commitment gets dropped. The idea is to cascade them to branch lines as mainlines get electrified or otherwise converted. They may by then be on 100% biodiesel, but they'll be there.

They may be the only remaining DMUs though.
 
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eldomtom2

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Maybe, but at that point one might very well start to see calls for shutting the line down and running electric buses instead...
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe, but at that point one might very well start to see calls for shutting the line down and running electric buses instead...

There might be serious calls for that on branch lines, but the idea of it on the Chiltern Line is about as ridiculous as it was last time that came up.

62mph 50-odd seat buses can't substitute in any way for a 6-car 100mph railway.
 

12LDA28C

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Is battery technology well-enough developed to allow a battery-only unit to be specified? As the 165s are used predominantly on stopping / suburban services, would this be an option or would distance (eg Aylesbury - Marylebone or Marylebone - High Wycombe) be beyond the limits of battery capacity?
 

zwk500

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Maybe, but at that point one might very well start to see calls for shutting the line down and running electric buses instead...
I don't see any serious public calls for the removal of diesel trains for a bus replacement.

People who are on the extremely strong support for climate action are standing in the middle of roads. People at the other end of the scale refuse to acknowledge the problem even exists. The idea that an electorally significant part of the public will start calling for diesel trains to be removed is fanciful. Even the complaints around Marylebone were focused on noise not emissions.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is battery technology well-enough developed to allow a battery-only unit to be specified? As the 165s are used predominantly on stopping / suburban services, would this be an option or would distance (eg Aylesbury - Marylebone or Marylebone - High Wycombe) be beyond the limits of battery capacity?

I'd personally see sense in a separate set of units, possibly fixed-formation, for Aylesbury which can run on the 4-rail LU electrification as well as battery/diesel north thereof.

Not a serious suggestion, but a 230 could do it :D
 

zwk500

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Is battery technology well-enough developed to allow a battery-only unit to be specified? As the 165s are used predominantly on stopping / suburban services, would this be an option or would distance (eg Aylesbury - Marylebone or Marylebone - High Wycombe) be beyond the limits of battery capacity?
Charging is the questions. Marylebone-Aylesbury is definitely within existing battery operation range (80-100km range off the juice) and can charge off the Met (an exemption for the additional 2 lines of 4-rail may well be granted). You'd need some juice somewhere on the Chiltern if you wanted to use batteries via High Wycombe
 

Bletchleyite

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Charging is the questions. Marylebone-Aylesbury is definitely within existing battery operation range (80-100km range off the juice) and can charge off the Met (an exemption for the additional 2 lines of 4-rail may well be granted). You'd need some juice somewhere on the Chiltern if you wanted to use batteries via High Wycombe

The Met fasts are already 4-rail, the (very occasional these days) fast Amershams run on them.
 

12LDA28C

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Charging is the questions. Marylebone-Aylesbury is definitely within existing battery operation range (80-100km range off the juice) and can charge off the Met (an exemption for the additional 2 lines of 4-rail may well be granted). You'd need some juice somewhere on the Chiltern if you wanted to use batteries via High Wycombe

Charging points would need to be installed at suitable locations, eg High Wycombe bay, Gerrards Cross turnback siding and so on. 3rd rail charging on the Met would be ideal but would need to be agreed by the LU which is by no means guaranteed and would involve much negotiation / paperwork / red tape being overcome etc.
 

zwk500

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The Met fasts are already 4-rail, the (very occasional these days) fast Amershams run on them.
Yes but you'd want to extend the 4th rail down towards Marylebone to maximise charging. At the moment you have 20km of a c.60km route juiced, so 15km dead, 20km live, 25km dead but in the unit diagram that turns into 50km dead, 20km live, 30km dead, 20km live. Rheostatic helps but really if you can get that down to 5-30-25 it's a much better balance, especially if you can install top-up chargers at the termini.
 

Bryson

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For this line a battery plus diesel solution could be a good idea. If the unit could be built with small traction batteries in addition to the diesel engines, then the train could operate on battery power only in central London and switch to the ICE once clear of Marylebone. Thus eliminating the emissions and noise that are causing the complaints.

The batteries would have plenty of time to recharge from Regen and/or the engines before been needed again.
 

12LDA28C

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For this line a battery plus diesel solution could be a good idea. If the unit could be built with small traction batteries in addition to the diesel engines, then the train could operate on battery power only in central London and switch to the ICE once clear of Marylebone. Thus eliminating the emissions and noise that are causing the complaints.

The batteries would have plenty of time to recharge from Regen and/or the engines before been needed again.

You'll be aware that this is exactly what was trialled on 168329 and the very fact that Chiltern are now asking for expressions of interest to construct a brand new fleet would seem to suggest that the trial was less than a resounding success. Of course a brand new diesel / battery hybrid unit might be rather more reliable than a modified 25-year-old DMU.
 

Bryson

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Exactly my thoughts, a new build would have far better integration than a conversion of a unit that was never designed for this.
 

Bletchleyite

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You'll be aware that this is exactly what was trialled on 168329 and the very fact that Chiltern are now asking for expressions of interest to construct a brand new fleet would seem to suggest that the trial was less than a resounding success. Of course a brand new diesel / battery hybrid unit might be rather more reliable than a modified 25-year-old DMU.

They're having trouble getting parts to keep the 165s going (electronic ones I believe; anything mechanical you could just fabricate) so new to replace those would always have been on the cards. The 168s could potentially receive the modifications. On the other hand, perhaps they'll propose a full replacement if a single fleet is more cost-effective, I'd be surprised if the tender didn't include priced options for doing exactly that.
 

Mikey C

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I'd be surprised if there weren't Classes 195, 196 and 197 running after 2050 to be honest, i.e. the whole commitment gets dropped. The idea is to cascade them to branch lines as mainlines get electrified or otherwise converted. They may by then be on 100% biodiesel, but they'll be there.

They may be the only remaining DMUs though.
It's one thing having pure DMUs trundling through the countryside on quite branch lines, quite another when we're talking about a fairly major commuter line serving London at one end and Birmingham at the other.

How long will London allow DMUs to operate, and I'm not just talking about Marylebone but the entire line within the Greater London boundary? By 2040 every road vehicle will be battery or hydrogen operated, any Chiltern DMU will stand our horribly. Which is something any leasing firm would be very concerned about.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's one thing having pure DMUs trundling through the countryside on quite branch lines, quite another when we're talking about a fairly major commuter line serving London at one end and Birmingham at the other.

How long will London allow DMUs to operate, and I'm not just talking about Marylebone but the entire line within the Greater London boundary? By 2040 every road vehicle will be battery or hydrogen operated, any Chiltern DMU will stand our horribly. Which is something any leasing firm would be very concerned about.

A hybrid with a reasonably big battery could of course operate on battery until it reaches London or Birmingham's city limits then fire up the diesels. TfW's 230s are I believe designed to do this.
 

12LDA28C

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By 2040 every road vehicle will be battery or hydrogen operated, any Chiltern DMU will stand our horribly. Which is something any leasing firm would be very concerned about.

Not convinced by this at all, I think that's extremely optimistic. Other operators have recently taken delivery of brand new fleets of diesel-only trains which will still be active on the network in 2040.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not convinced by this at all, I think that's extremely optimistic. Other operators have recently taken delivery of brand new fleets of diesel-only trains which will still be active on the network in 2040.

My expectation would be that by that sort of date the only mechanical DMUs left will be Classes 195 to 197, but I'm also pretty much sure, barring a couple being written off in an accident, they'll all remain in service.
 

zwk500

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It's one thing having pure DMUs trundling through the countryside on quite branch lines, quite another when we're talking about a fairly major commuter line serving London at one end and Birmingham at the other.
if it's going to drop DMUs by 2040 the government would need to commit to electrifying it as far as Snow Hill pretty soon.
By 2040 every road vehicle will be battery or hydrogen operated, any Chiltern DMU will stand our horribly. Which is something any leasing firm would be very concerned about.
In 17 years? Will they heck. Plenty of vehicles far older than that in London, todays cars will be running in 2045.
 

HSTEd

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In 17 years? Will they heck. Plenty of vehicles far older than that in London, todays cars will be running in 2045.
In 2040 the youngest internal combustion car will be 5 years old and the youngest pure internal combustion car will be 10 years old and approaching end of life rapidly.

The vast majority of the fleet will be electric and diesel and petrol will be becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.
Indeed I would expect diesel cars to last longer since significant amounts of fuel can be practically stored at residential properties.
 

Bletchleyite

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The vast majority of the fleet will be electric and diesel and petrol will be becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.
Indeed I would expect diesel cars to last longer since significant amounts of fuel can be practically stored at residential properties.

And because there isn't a viable answer for lorries yet.
 

zwk500

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In 2040 the youngest internal combustion car will be 5 years old and the youngest pure internal combustion car will be 10 years old and approaching end of life rapidly.
I don't hold out great hope for the deadline on production of ICE engines to hold.
 

JamesT

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In 2040 the youngest internal combustion car will be 5 years old and the youngest pure internal combustion car will be 10 years old and approaching end of life rapidly.

The vast majority of the fleet will be electric and diesel and petrol will be becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.
Indeed I would expect diesel cars to last longer since significant amounts of fuel can be practically stored at residential properties.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...-energy/average-car-uk-10-years-old-says-acea from the headline (article is paywalled) says the average age of a car is 10 years old.
There are ~32m passenger cars on UK roads and last year 1.6m new cars were bought. If that rate of sales is kept up and it's all replacement, then you'll have an electric majority, but I wouldn't call it vast.
Unless some incentives are introduced, I expect people will be more inclined to hang on to their existing cars until they fail.
 

Mikey C

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In 17 years? Will they heck. Plenty of vehicles far older than that in London, todays cars will be running in 2045.
They've already introduced the London ULEZ to remove one generation of older vehicles, it's highly likely that something similar will remove all ICE only cars and vans within the next 10 years, and hybrids by 2040. And remember my comment was about London, not the rest of the country.

And because there isn't a viable answer for lorries yet.
It's possible that hydrogen will become the favoured fuel for lorries. With battery power for lighter vehicles. Or massive taxes on diesel vehicles, so that produce gets transferred onto smaller electric ones for the last few miles within London.
 

RailWonderer

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My expectation would be that by that sort of date the only mechanical DMUs left will be Classes 195 to 197, but I'm also pretty much sure, barring a couple being written off in an accident, they'll all remain in service.
172s and 185s will likely remain by that time.
They're having trouble getting parts to keep the 165s going (electronic ones I believe; anything mechanical you could just fabricate) so new to replace those would always have been on the cards. The 168s could potentially receive the modifications. On the other hand, perhaps they'll propose a full replacement if a single fleet is more cost-effective, I'd be surprised if the tender didn't include priced options for doing exactly that.
If GWR get hold of the ex-TfW 158s they can see off some 165s to send to Chiltern between a fleet replacement, which is some years off and depends on any plans (or lack of) for electrification.
A side note, are those class 196s and 197s the last pure DMU we ever see? I'd put money on us seeing one more DMU order and Chiltern seems most likely.
 

JonathanH

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No doubt the DfT will mandate some kind of specification based on any future electrification or otherwise and it should be remembered that even a newbuild DMU will be quieter, more economical and less polluting than a 32-year-old Class 165.
Ironically, the 165s had at least passive provision to be converted to electric units within their lifetime (or that is at least what NSE claimed when they were first introduced).
 

Blindtraveler

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I can't disagree that pulling into malabone on a gutless and overcrowded 168 after a comparatively slow journey from the North really does feel like coming into London through the back door. The silver sets, with something big and thirsty on one end were certainly nice and were to my way of thinking Rail travel as it damn well should be but equally I can understand why they have been scaled back almost into non-existence and whilst I will miss the 165 equally I can understand why their end does look fairly close

I always said that electrification of the Chiltern route should have taken priority over HS2 or any of the other projects that seemed to be widely supported at the time, the money being blown on this one project could have seen at least 20 not in a significant projects carried out with far greater benefit to my way of thinking including even giving some money to London underground for track and power upgrades on the route to amersham
 
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