• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Chiltern electrification alternatives being studied...

Status
Not open for further replies.

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,610
I don't want to pay more tax to pay for electrification, nor have more inflation from excessive borrowing but come the end of the Turbo and Turbostar service life their hand will be forced anyway in about 10 years time (nearer 15 for the 168s).
It's cheaper in the long run, and better for the world. I don't want to pay tax for the Royal Family, or Northern Ireland, but here we are. Nobody will ever be happy with that type of thing.

If you don't support tax $$$ going on rail electrification, which is a rare unifier on this crazy place, I wonder if this is the forum for you!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,237
What parts are causing that issue? Aren't 165s basically posh Sprinters? And there are likely to still be 15x knocking around in 10 years, though right at the end of their lives.
Agreed, it's confusing that 165s seem to be causing more issues than the older Sprinters. Indeed don't the 165/166s have similar engines to the Perkins engined 158s?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,274
Agreed, it's confusing that 165s seem to be causing more issues than the older Sprinters. Indeed don't the 165/166s have similar engines to the Perkins engined 158s?
It is sometimes blamed on the electronics fitted to 165s and 166s that aren't fitted to sprinters and have become obsolete.

The Perkins engines don't last as long as the Cummins ones.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
Apparently one of the things Ukrainian industry was good at was making precision cast metal components used in the arguably obsolete mechanical injection systems used on the Perkins engines.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,514
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Did they actually challenge though or did they just stamp their feet and make youtube videos?

IIRC they (the 'disgusted of Goring') got as far as NR promising to look at redesigning the OLE structures, a promise now quietly forgotten!

Put a de-energised section of overhead third rail under the bridge then.

There are dead OLE sections at overbridges on the Paisley Canal line, to enable electrification on the (relatively) cheap, although clearances restrict what can use the route.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,436
Location
Northampton
If you don't support tax $$$ going on rail electrification, which is a rare unifier on this crazy place, I wonder if this is the forum for you!
I'd be very wary about tax dollars going to Electrification because the Americans will want something in return :D
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,763
I don't want to pay more tax to pay for electrification, nor have more inflation from excessive borrowing but come the end of the Turbo and Turbostar service life their hand will be forced anyway in about 10 years time (nearer 15 for the 168s).
Rail electrification makes railways cheaper to run, so in the long run the burden on the taxpayer is reduced. Besides, spending £1bn on electrifying the Chiltern Line is not going to move the tax dial at all, the government spent nearly £1200bn last year
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,275
What does this even mean?
I think he means that the Met should be extended to Aylesbury and the Chiltern service via the Amersham line would be abandoned.

Chiltern service to Aylesbury would be via Princess Risborough only.

Given the flattening of the peak there is likely sufficient capacity at Baker Street for the additional terminations (there certainly is off peak) and Baker Street is probably a far superior termini to Marylebone in connections terms.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
I think he means that the Met should be extended to Aylesbury and the Chiltern service via the Amersham line would be abandoned.

I appreciate this is in the Speculative Discussion section but is extending the DC by 15 miles even an option?

Not to mention the fact that journey times between Aylesbury and London would be extended due to the lower maximum speed of the S Stock units and increased stopping frequency.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I appreciate this is in the Speculative Discussion section but is extending the DC by 15 miles even an option?

Probably not, though I guess it'd be possible to fit some dedicated S8s with batteries if it came to it. I doubt this would be popular, though, and LU probably wouldn't be interested.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,275
I appreciate this is in the Speculative Discussion section but is extending the DC by 15 miles even an option?
The presumption of no third rail extension specifically does not apply to London Underground four rail installations, or to DLR third rail installations.

It is applies specifically and only to Southern railway style top contact third rail systems using Network Rail working practices.

So yes, it is very much an option.

Not to mention the fact that journey times between Aylesbury and London would be extended due to the lower maximum speed of the S Stock units and increased stopping frequency.
The stopping frequency is in no way inherent to the S-stock!
And despite these (marginally) longer journey times, passenger numbers at Amersham are evenly split between chiltern and the met, or at least were before coronavirus.

In reality, the journey time extension is unlikely to be significant.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
The stopping frequency is in no way inherent to the S-stock!

I never said it was, but the fact is that Chiltern services run non-stop from Rickmansworth to Harrow and then to Marylebone whilst LU services, even the semi-fasts stop at more stations, with the associated increase in journey times unless you're suggesting that the LU knock out a load of stops?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,436
Location
Northampton
I'd be very surprised if the safety case for extension of 4th rail could be made, although as was mentioned batteries are certainly possible. I'd have thought the costs of a signalling conversion would kill it though.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,275
I'd be very surprised if the safety case for extension of 4th rail could be made, although as was mentioned batteries are certainly possible. I'd have thought the costs of a signalling conversion would kill it though.
According to that long report the RSSB put together, the London Underground were able to make the safety case that their working practices effectively mitigated the risks of a ground level power suipply system.

(No track-side work with the power live and no level crossings, amongst other things. And the Amersham-Aylesbury line has no level crossings, so transfer to LU would seem to meet the requirements)
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
10,617
Location
Hampshire
Apparently one of the things Ukrainian industry was good at was making precision cast metal components used in the arguably obsolete mechanical injection systems used on the Perkins engines.
It wouldn't surprise me - you also have to remember that Cummins is still in existence and can provide some degree of support (even if the engines are overhauled by whoever LH Group became), whereas Perkins disappeared a long time ago into the empire of Caterpillar and probably long went the support and technical know-how for the TW-H line of engines. But, like a lot of things from the 1990s, electrical components are another area of issue too - despite the advancement in the 90s of electrical tech, a lot of it has since become obsolete and tricky to maintain.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,436
Location
Northampton
According to that long report the RSSB put together, the London Underground were able to make the safety case that their working practices effectively mitigated the risks of a ground level power suipply system.

(No track-side work with the power live and no level crossings, amongst other things. And the Amersham-Aylesbury line has no level crossings, so transfer to LU would seem to meet the requirements)
It's possible, although batteries may be a better solution anyway.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
And the Amersham-Aylesbury line has no level crossings, so transfer to LU would seem to meet the requirements)

It does however have several foot crossings which I assume would either have to be closed and/or footbridges provided instead.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,275
I never said it was, but the fact is that Chiltern services run non-stop from Rickmansworth to Harrow and then to Marylebone whilst LU services, even the semi-fasts stop at more stations, with the associated increase in journey times unless you're suggesting that the LU knock out a load of stops?
Well on the sections where the Chiltern trains share the track with LU today, I'd suggest that the S-stock would just run the stopping pattern Chiltern does.

The "average" Amersham to Marylebone on chiltern still takes 40-41 minutes, the Met only takes about 50 today. Knock out a couple of the stops and you might get somewhere. The fastest Met train in the morning peak takes about 41.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,237
There are "democratic" implications about having stations miles outside London where all their services are under the control of the London Mayor and Assembly only. It's already a bit of an issue with the outer Met at the moment, but at least there are alternative Chiltern services as well.

You'd need a way to guarantee that the London Mayor didn't skew the services to benefit his electorate in London over people outside London.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There are "democratic" implications about having stations miles outside London where all their services are under the control of the London Mayor and Assembly only. It's already a bit of an issue with the outer Met at the moment, but at least there are alternative Chiltern services as well.

You'd need a way to guarantee that the London Mayor didn't skew the services to benefit his electorate in London over people outside London.

Ask people in Ormskirk what they think about the Merseyside taxpayer funding their excellent train service, and I doubt they will have concerns about any of that.
 

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
2,217
Location
All around the network
It's cheaper in the long run, and better for the world. I don't want to pay tax for the Royal Family, or Northern Ireland, but here we are. Nobody will ever be happy with that type of thing.

If you don't support tax $$$ going on rail electrification, which is a rare unifier on this crazy place, I wonder if this is the forum for you!
To be fair I don't think we'd be paying more tax unless they decided to mass electrify, it will be done with piecemeal investment whoever is in power.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
It wouldn't surprise me - you also have to remember that Cummins is still in existence and can provide some degree of support (even if the engines are overhauled by whoever LH Group became), whereas Perkins disappeared a long time ago into the empire of Caterpillar and probably long went the support and technical know-how for the TW-H line of engines. But, like a lot of things from the 1990s, electrical components are another area of issue too - despite the advancement in the 90s of electrical tech, a lot of it has since become obsolete and tricky to maintain.
No the Perkins TWH 2000 engines still get OEM support from Caterpillar at the factory they were built at in Shrewsbury. It is just that some of the parts were sourced from Ukraine. Global Sourcing and all that.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
10,617
Location
Hampshire
No the Perkins TWH 2000 engines still get OEM support from Caterpillar at the factory they were built at in Shrewsbury. It is just that some of the parts were sourced from Ukraine. Global Sourcing and all that.
Interesting, cheers!

That must bring some good support for the Welsh 158s then, with Mach depot being almost down the road.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,610
I'd be very wary about tax dollars going to Electrification because the Americans will want something in return :D
I know... but 'tax pounds' just doesn't quite have the ring to it. Also, was on a US keyboard..

For the Met, it's absurd to run a tube line to Aylesbury. I would truncate at Watford Junction (if funds could be gotten as part of a bigger transformation which wasn't TfL-focused - but electrification/simplification of the Chiltern network as a whole, perhaps) - with Moor Park as an interchange, and then Chiltern only beyond. If paths arose (step forward OOC)

Or a Ricky-rebuild, but either way, lots of costs and no $.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I know... but 'tax pounds' just doesn't quite have the ring to it. Also, was on a US keyboard..

For the Met, it's absurd to run a tube line to Aylesbury. I would truncate at Watford Junction (if funds could be gotten as part of a bigger transformation which wasn't TfL-focused - but electrification/simplification of the Chiltern network as a whole, perhaps) - with Moor Park as an interchange, and then Chiltern only beyond. If paths arose (step forward OOC)

Or a Ricky-rebuild, but either way, lots of costs and no $.

Chiltern is hardly complex. It's one of the simplest TOCs out there, probably roughly similar to the other really simple one, C2C.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,610
In the context of electrification and having the tube run on it, it's a complexity. C2C is done, but has nothing like that.

As a network, it's not especially complex, with two lines and a couple of spurs. The bleed into the Snow Hill lines is another, again for electrification - because you need Kidderminster, two routes to Stratford etc - if full interworking was done (in future, perhaps!)
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,275
For the Met, it's absurd to run a tube line to Aylesbury. I would truncate at Watford Junction (if funds could be gotten as part of a bigger transformation which wasn't TfL-focused - but electrification/simplification of the Chiltern network as a whole, perhaps) - with Moor Park as an interchange, and then Chiltern only beyond. If paths arose (step forward OOC)
I am not very structuralist on this, I don't think it matters if it is notionally a "tube line" or not.

Even at Amersham LU trains comparably popular to Chiltern, so I don't think its unreasonable just to simplify operations by extending the Met to Aylesbury and being done with the annoyance of tripcocks and all that.

I think you would probably be afford two Chiltern-aping fast trains from Aylesbury and extending the two Amersham terminators to Aylesbury, so it would probably be a net improvement in service despite the loss of a few minutes of journey time.
Where the London line on the map is doesn't really matter, as we saw when people were muttering that Crossrail to Reading was silly, and then it happened anyway. The trend has been for metros to get longer and subsume services that people thought were beyond them after all. Aylesbury itself would still be served by Chiltern via Princess Risborough after all.

EDIT:
Getting the Met to Watford Junction is going to cost an awful lot of money.
 
Last edited:

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,414
That is rewriting history. There was one passenger train an hour between Banbury and Leamington Spa in the early 1990s, and the last northbound train was at 8pm.
Interesting it was that early; it was later than that in the early 80s e.g. there was a 2123 from Banbury to Leamington in 1982 (see Timetable World).
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
For the Met, it's absurd to run a tube line to Aylesbury.
I recall, from my first trips between Nottingham and London in the late 1950s on Great Central line expresses, that Aylesbury was still served by the Metropolitan at that time. Steam traction was used beyond Rickmansworth, which was the limit of electrification.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top