Change of route excess - HS1

[MichaelAMW]

If I may just check something...

I think this has been discussed previously but I haven't managed to locate the thread(s). Is it the case that the normal rules apply for a one-way excess from a "Not valid on HS1" return ticket to "Plus high speed"? I think those other discussions were suggesting that often the ticket-checking staff just issue the supplement - is it £5? - rather than the appropriate excess. However, am I actually entitled to just pay half the difference between the two return fares, as is usually the situation? I don't, myself, believe that HS1 is any type of special case but I thought I'd check.

The journey, although I don't think it actually affects the answer, is London to Ramsgate, off-peak return.

TIA,
Michael.

 

[First class]

If I may just check something...

I think this has been discussed previously but I haven't managed to locate the thread(s). Is it the case that the normal rules apply for a one-way excess from a "Not valid on HS1" return ticket to "Plus high speed"? I think those other discussions were suggesting that often the ticket-checking staff just issue the supplement - is it £5? - rather than the appropriate excess. However, am I actually entitled to just pay half the difference between the two return fares, as is usually the situation? I don't, myself, believe that HS1 is any type of special case but I thought I'd check.

The journey, although I don't think it actually affects the answer, is London to Ramsgate, off-peak return.

TIA,
Michael.

So you want to know whether you can excess a £29.60 ticket into a £34.60 one, paying £2.50 excess?

I don't think so is the answer. HS1 appears to have all different sets of ticketing popularities.

I suspect you will be asked to pay around £5, although other "supplements" appear available:

£5.30 "HS1 Upgrade Anytime"
£5.00 "HS1 Upgrade"
£4.80 "HS1 Upgrade Off Peak"
From : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS - 5023 RAMSGATE

 

[Clip]

Its only an excess from Ashford in essence as thats the highspeed part you are wanting to use rather then the normal one

 

[MichaelAMW]

So you want to know whether you can excess a £29.60 ticket into a £34.60 one, paying £2.50 excess?

I don't think so is the answer. HS1 appears to have all different sets of ticketing popularities.

Yes, that is indeed what I hope to do, for a one-way excess. Any idea, then, why it is not the same as (more or less) everywhere else?

 

[Clip]

Yes, that is indeed what I hope to do, for a one-way excess. Any idea, then, why it is not the same as (more or less) everywhere else?

As shown in the photo above the excess is set each way for the service on which stations you want to go to

 

[MichaelAMW]

Its only an excess from Ashford in essence as thats the highspeed part you are wanting to use rather then the normal one

In fact, I'm intending to go via Herne Bay, so it will only be as far as Gravesend.

 

[Clip]

In fact, I'm intending to go via Herne Bay, so it will only be as far as Gravesend.

Ahh in that case it will be about £3.80 i think without looking really.. You do know that one takes an age and most that come that way of an evening will either terminate @ faversham or Broadstairs as they dont do one through to Ramsgate that direction IIRC- your better off getting the Margate one which is quicker as the above stops everywhere

 

[MichaelAMW]

As shown in the photo above the excess is set each way for the service on which stations you want to go to

Fair enough - but any idea why the rule is different for that route?

 

[Clip]

Fair enough - but any idea why the rule is different for that route?

No doubt someone will be along to tell you i have worded it wrong or something equally boring but you are paying a premium for using the HS1 it is not a normal excess fare as you are still doing the same route to the same destination.

Though as they dont have 1st class and you had say a 1st from Newcastle to Ramsgate then you would still have to pay the premium( IIRC) even though you cant sit in 1st as there is none on the HS1

 

[MichaelAMW]

Ahh in that case it will be about £3.80 i think without looking really.. You do know that one takes an age and most that come that way of an evening will either terminate @ faversham or Broadstairs as they dont do one through to Ramsgate that direction IIRC- your better off getting the Margate one which is quicker as the above stops everywhere

Thanks. You are shrewder than you realise! I'm actually going to be breaking my outward journey at Margate, hence that route, and if luck and EMT are on my side I will connect at St. P from Nottingham onto the 17.27, which is a "fast" Broadstairs. As far as I am aware, I also don't think there are any through to Ramsgate via the north Kent route at any time.

 

[Anvil1984]

Though as they dont have 1st class and you had say a 1st from Newcastle to Ramsgate then you would still have to pay the premium( IIRC) even though you cant sit in 1st as there is none on the HS1

No thats not how it works, the premium is only payable on Not HS1 fares. Any Permitted tickets allow you travel on HS1

The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services. Please note Earlybird ticket holders are not eligable for a high speed upgrade.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.
Please note there is no first class seating on high speed services.
Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

 

[Clip]

No thats not how it works, the premium is only payable on Not HS1 fares. Any Permitted tickets allow you travel on HS1

The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services. Please note Earlybird ticket holders are not eligable for a high speed upgrade.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.
Please note there is no first class seating on high speed services.
Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

Only for long distance though. If you were to buy an any permitted in Kent then that needs to say + High speed..

though granted i realise that he is coming on a long distance ticket.

EDit I see you got that in just as i quoted you..

Micheal i see why your wanting to go that way now too

 

[Anvil1984]

Only for long distance though. If you were to buy an any permitted in Kent then that needs to say + High speed..

Nope as it states in the box if it states Any Permitted then it is ok, if a ticket is not valid on HS1 it will state not valid on HS1 they changed the majority of the potentially affected fares to either be "Not Valid on HS1) or Plus HS1

Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

 

[yorkie]

I'm fed up of HS1 ticketing, it appears to be designed to confuse people and be as different as possible. If they do the same with HS2 it will wreck havoc for fares throughout the country.

MichaelAMW - Can you give me an example ticket?

I do have to question the legitimacy and legality of these 'supplements' (where they cause the customer to pay a higher fare than the Conditions of Carriage / Routeing Guide suggests) as they do indeed go against the normal rules on excessing. I guess it does depend partly on whether or not excess fares are in any way "protected" and if so, to what extent.

I believe they exist to save time for guards mainly. Excessing is a faff, to be honest. If a guard operates a route where a significant number of passengers are going to be on incorrectly routed tickets, then they are going to struggle to issue all those excesses! A simple supplement makes it easier for everyone. I have no problem with it IF - and this is a big if - the supplement was priced no higher than the cheapest excess. Or, in other words, if no customers lost out.

Indeed there are times when customers benefit, as sometimes the supplement is cheaper. So it's not always bad. But it should never be bad.

As for the issue of permitted routes, there is confusion here. All I will say is that the HS1 route is a permitted route in the Routeing Guide between London and pretty much all the stations in the South East that you may reasonably expect to be able to use HS1 to get to. All tickets beyond London to these destinations that have "LONDON" as an option listed in the Routeing Guide, will therefore have permitted routes on HS1. So, providing the route is "Any Permitted" (or any other routeing that does not explicitly prohibit HS1) then HS1 is, of course, fine. So a ticket from Birmingham to Ashford routed "High Wycombe" is fine, because once you have gone through London it has the same validity as the Any Permitted ticket.

The route "Plus High Speed" tickets should be named "Any Permitted" as they cause confusion. I wonder whose idea was; was it the Pricing Manager of SET (who allegedly has 'issues' with people using his "shiny new trains" on cheap tickets), someone higher up in SET (the same shameful people who try to catch genuine customers out with OEPs?), or did the incompetence come from the bungling ATOC themselves? We may never know.

 

[Paul Kelly]

There are places where HS1 is not a permitted route to London that have both "Plus High Speed" and "Not Valid on HS1" fares though, e.g. Tonbridge. In these cases I guess it would be the "Not Valid on HS1" that should be renamed to Any Permitted. It is all very confusing.

 

[yorkie]

There are places where HS1 is not a permitted route to London that have both "Plus High Speed" and "Not Valid on HS1" fares though, e.g. Tonbridge. In these cases I guess it would be the "Not Valid on HS1" that should be renamed to Any Permitted. It is all very confusing.

In those cases it may well be that the people who set the fares think it is (or should be), in fact I believe this example is being looked at by SET after a customer reported on here that he was mis-sold the higher (Any Permitted) fare from somewhere like Potters Bar (can't remember where it was exactly) to Tonbridge, rather than the Not HS1 fare.

If a guard on a HS1 train was to wonder if a ticket to Tonbridge was valid on HS1, would they:
a) Look it up on the Routeing Guide (and take ages doing so); or
b) Look on Avantix, see that the clear intention is to provide fares via HS1 or avoiding HS1 and deem that therefore it must be valid.

I'll go for b) as it would take about 10 seconds versus about 10 minutes!

 

[craigwilson]

No thats not how it works, the premium is only payable on Not HS1 fares. Any Permitted tickets allow you travel on HS1

The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services. Please note Earlybird ticket holders are not eligable for a high speed upgrade.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.
Please note there is no first class seating on high speed services.
Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

Only for long distance though. If you were to buy an any permitted in Kent then that needs to say + High speed..

though granted i realise that he is coming on a long distance ticket.

EDit I see you got that in just as i quoted you..

Micheal i see why your wanting to go that way now too

Hmmmm....the only tickets bearing "Any Permitted" I've bought in Kent are the one that don't ever touch the HS1 line e.g. Margate to Sandwich, Ramsgate to Ashford; in my experience with tickets in Kent, if HS1 is a possible valid route, then it will say "PLUS HIGH SPEED" or "NOT HS1". As others have stated, what the HS1 tickets should really say is "ANY PERMITTED"

Southeastern themselves actually perpetuated the confusion for a while :roll: when you got to Ashford the announcement would come - "your ticket must state "plus high speed" to travel further on this service" or similar - condradicting the rules published on their own site (and kindly repeated by Anvil1984 above)! They've corrected it now though.

What are the rules regarding using HS1 for connections on an Advance ticket, e.g. to Manchester, especially regarding time restrictions? Normally a booking engine will give me HS1 as my connection, but on really early advance tickets - say travelling from Margate to meet the 0900 EUS-MAN service, it gives me a connection via Victoria.

Normally I stick to the suggested connections as it would make my life easier if I missed my booked Virgin train, but what are my options?

 

[Clip]

Now the any permitted is what i have advocated in my own head all along but Ive done the journey to east kent many times now and the station staff and some of the guards are adamant that it has to say PLUS HIGH speed on the ticket or they will make you pay the supplement.

Hence why i wrote what i did above.

I do feel that this just shows that even some of us who work on the railway get bloody confused at the stupidity of something.

Mind you i much prefer the journey from Vic along the coast or as a macbre treat to myself ill go london bridge round past dartford to Gillingham for fun.

 

[yorkie]

What are the rules regarding using HS1 for connections on an Advance ticket, e.g. to Manchester, especially regarding time restrictions? Normally a booking engine will give me HS1 as my connection, but on really early advance tickets - say travelling from Margate to meet the 0900 EUS-MAN service, it gives me a connection via Victoria.

Normally I stick to the suggested connections as it would make my life easier if I missed my booked Virgin train, but what are my options?

Ah, you missed some earlier threads!

Basically SET's pricing manager is allegedly a bit, you could say awkward and anti-customer. He does not like people using his "shiny new trains" on cheap tickets.

It is alleged that SET attempted to bar HS1 as a valid route on all Advance tickets! This would have been impractical (Route "Virgin & Connections Not HS1" anyone? ) and a compromise was to introduce a secret restriction code that, for certain advance tickets, apparently prevents their use on early HS1 services. This restriction is not made public. I would suggest it may be unenforceable. The only way it is 'enforced' is that booking engines do not allow such trains to appear in their itineraries.

Why on earth such ludicrous rules and restrictions are allowed on HS1, I do not know.

I am opposed to HS2 because I can see it going the same way, leading to huge fare rises and a fares system that is already complex becoming even more so. If we let them do the same with HS2 as they did for HS1 it will be a disaster, with only stopping trains on the 'classic' routes, huge price rises, and ticketing that even we will struggle to understand, let alone the general public.

 

[Anvil1984]

To be honest the complicated rules for HS1 are no different than anywhere on the network, as a guard myself (who's probably had Yorkie on my train and possibly peeved him lol) the rules anywhere just arent clear. The only reason I knew the any permistted rule on HS1 was because I've had a couple of passengers on the Harrogate line and I've had discussions about using the HS1 services.

Im not strictly opposed to HS2, however would appreciate the money being spent on the classic network, but I know that for political reasons (i.e which pot the cash is coming from) that is just not going to happen which is a shame.

Going back to my first point about it not being any differet, its just like XC TMs saying that EC and Connections Advances are not valid beyond York (going north) but that is actually the booked connection and the one they are given (especially on the ones that skip Darlington or Durham), its a minefield.

 

[yorkie]

But it is though, yes I take your point about it being complicated and not the only secret rules, but they have re-named "Any Permitted" for a huge number of flows. If that happens on HS2, it will be even more confusing! They create the false impression that a ticket needs to say HS1 for it to be valid on HS1, and we often have people asking here because they are confused.

I don't see why you would have peeved me!

I have heard of one or two guards on the Harrogate line claiming tickets from places like Tutbury (or wherever) to York were not valid via Harrogate (and then they found out they were valid so didn't charge the customer) but this didn't happen to me, and at least they admitted their mistake, so I have no problem with the end result. I can't recall any NT guard causing me any problems.

 

[Anvil1984]

Twas a sarcastic comment knowing your on my line though lol, Im one of the guards who sells a lot of York to New Pudsey SVRs on a weekend when passengers are having a night out in Leeds etc.

HS2 is years away though and hopefully we will have learned the mistakes of HS1, hopefully HS1 by then will be classed as part of the normal classic network (I can but hold my breath on that).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is alleged that SET attempted to bar HS1 as a valid route on all Advance tickets! This would have been impractical (Route "Virgin & Connections Not HS1" anyone? ) and a compromise was to introduce a secret restriction code that, for certain advance tickets, apparently prevents their use on early HS1 services. This restriction is not made public. I would suggest it may be unenforceable.

I agree.

The only way it is 'enforced' is that booking engines do not allow such trains to appear in their itineraries.

Which begs the question: Is such a ticket sold at all, anywhere?

 

[yorkie]

Twas a sarcastic comment knowing your on my line though lol, Im one of the guards who sells a lot of York to New Pudsey SVRs on a weekend when passengers are having a night out in Leeds etc.

I was wondering if you were hinting you'd queried tickets on odd routes and were wondering if one was me

If you offer to sell those tickets, then that's highly commendable in my view, and I salute you for that! (actually you may have mentioned this before; or was that another guard I know who works York-Leeds...!)

HS2 is years away though and hopefully we will have learned the mistakes of HS1, hopefully HS1 by then will be classed as part of the normal classic network (I can but hold my breath on that).

Well, I would hope so, but the DfT would have to have radical changes. And I do wonder if SET had a big say in HS1 fares or not. I am not sure what's more worrying; the thought of the DfT/ATOC may have allowed SET free reign to wreck havoc in such a way, and sepearate themselves from the normal rules, or the idea that the DfT/ATOC have a policy of implementing confusing and separate rules and routings for all HS lines in this way....

 

[Anvil1984]

I was wondering if you were hinting you'd queried tickets on odd routes and were wondering if one was me

Nah only had the one odd ticket recently which was a South Milford to Leeds return via Cardiff, Bristol and London, and she was female (quite attractive too) and I was the one selling the ticket, but we've digressed.

Fares and retailing managers are paid to make the passengers pay as much as they can, HS has one of the more restrictive PRIV policies for us staff too so its not just the normal punter. If they were more lax then hopefully they'd get more passengers, if the trains dont fill out of London then it'll start dropping to match demand and as mentionned they have years to work out HS2s policy

 

[Clip]

Nah only had the one odd ticket recently which was a South Milford to Leeds return via Cardiff, Bristol and London, and she was female (quite attractive too) and I was the one selling the ticket, but we've digressed.

Fares and retailing managers are paid to make the passengers pay as much as they can, HS has one of the more restrictive PRIV policies for us staff too so its not just the normal punter. If they were more lax then hopefully they'd get more passengers, if the trains dont fill out of London then it'll start dropping to match demand and as mentionned they have years to work out HS2s policy

Thats an interesting point Anvil because when ive travelled on it at times out side peak your struggling to get the units filled whereas the services that leave for Dover/Ramsgate from Victoria are at least 50% full when they leave Victoria and after 3pm you have to be quick to get a seat or else your standing till at least Rochester.

Now is this because they have deliberately made it confusing for punters with the supplement being available even if your ticket is valid so they can get a few extra quid, I dont know, but they need to stay away from the whole pricing of HS2 when it comes around..

It has to be simple. Any permitted and the a supplement to be paid for a ticket that is routed Virgin only or Via High Wycombe say as two examples.

And they should let all their staff know this too.

And get a Mystery Shopper to do some East Kent stations and ask that all important question to make sure they train their staff properly

 

[MichaelAMW]

I didn't expect to generate quite such a discussion! Still, that's why this forum is interesting, of course.

Clip - actually, I'm not on a longer-distance ticket as I have an Advance from Nottingham to London. It was only a pound more to go 1st so I didn't book through: there are no 1st Advance tickets through to the Southern.

Yorkie - when you asked for an example ticket did you just mean whatever I end up using/getting sold once the journey has happened? Or did you mean something else?!

 

[Clip]

Clip - actually, I'm not on a longer-distance ticket as I have an Advance from Nottingham to London. It was only a pound more to go 1st so I didn't book through: there are no 1st Advance tickets through to the Southern.

I wasnt sure if you were or not to be honest.. But as they have said as long as it says ANy permitted then your fine.. But what is your ticket then?

 

[First class]

Quick question:

If I buy a Liverpool-Dover SOR routed +Any Permitted with a PRIV costing £88.25, I am not permitted to use HS1 until after 10:00 (due to discount restriction).

How is the excess calculated for an excess to public fare in one direction only, and only between London and Dover via HS1?

My calculations are:

Public LIV-DVP SOR = £353.00
Ticket Held SOR = £88.25
Difference = £264.75
Divide that by 2 as only one direction = £132 excess

Obviously you just buy a public London-Dover SDS for £35.90, but is there any cheaper way to make the original LIV-DVP valid on HS1 other than buying a new public ticket?

 

[clagmonster]

If I buy a Liverpool-Dover SOR routed +Any Permitted with a PRIV costing £88.25, I am not permitted to use HS1 until after 10:00 (due to discount restriction).

How is the excess calculated for an excess to public fare in one direction only, and only between London and Dover via HS1?

My calculations are:

Public LIV-DVP SOR = £353.00
Ticket Held SOR = £88.25
Difference = £264.75
Divide that by 2 as only one direction = £132 excess

It depends on whether you treat it as a change of route excess, or a change of ticket type excess. I am inclined towards the latter, as the ticket is valid by that route but not at that time, which would make it the full difference of £264.75. That said, I don't think there are any examples where you wouldn't just pay the public fare, so it's hypothetical.