Challenge Unpaid fare Notice

[RichT35]

I bought an advanced ticket from the LNER website for a journey from Peterborough to York, on 29th April 2023, leaving Peterborough at 18.18. Due to a change in circumstances I amended the ticket to Peterborough to York, on 29th April 2023, leaving Peterborough at 19.18.

As it turned out I got to Peterborough station just after 18.00. I wanted to ask if I could get on the 18.18 so I went to the ticket office and asked the lady behind the counter. (I have asked for CCTV of this but have not received anything back yet.) She said she saw no reason why not and said, “You have paid for the journey”. She then asked if I had a reservation, I showed her my ticket and she gave me a new seat reservation for the 18.18.

When the guard came and checked my ticket, he told me I was on the wrong train. I told him what I had done (above) and showed him the seat reservation I had been given. He said that this was not valid for travel. I reaffirmed that I had sought clarification on whether I could travel on the 18.18 from a LNER representative and that the seat reservation was evidence that they had said I could, (they would not have issued me with a seat reservation if they though my ticket was not valid). The guard just repeated that it was not valid for travel, and I would have to buy a new ticket. I said I was not going to do this (I had been told I was allowed to travel by and LNER employee, so felt my ticket was valid). He then asked for ID which I gave, and he issued the Unpaid Fare Notice.

I have appealed which has been rejected, stating the ticket was not valid. but they have reduced the amount I owe from £61 to £22. Although this is the letter of the law I feel it is unjust because I was acting on information from an LNER authority.

So what to do. Do people with more knowledge of this think I have a case?

Having read similar posts the advice is pay the notice before they add on admin charges and the total gets bigger. But if I do this I have no way of challenging what I feel is an injustice. Could I pay the fine, stating that I dispute the charge, and then take LNER to small claims court, or if I have case should I leave it and let them take me to court. I know it all seems a bit over the top for what is now £20 but I was so enraged that I have difficulty letting it go.

Any advice greatly received.

Rich

 

[danm14]

You had permission from an authorised person to travel on that service using that ticket, therefore your ticket was valid and you owe nothing - end of discussion.

The problem is proving that you got permission given that it wasn't in writing - having been issued a seat reservation is not proof in itself (you don't absolutely require a ticket to reserve a seat) - but it certainly corroborates your story.

 

[185143]

You had permission from an authorised person to travel on that service using that ticket, therefore your ticket was valid and you owe nothing - end of discussion.

The problem is proving that you got permission given that it wasn't in writing - having been issued a seat reservation is not proof in itself (you don't absolutely require a ticket to reserve a seat) - but it certainly corroborates your story.

I strongly suspect if this were to go to court, LNER would struggle to argue "beyond reasonable doubt" that the OP wasn't given permission to travel if the CCTV is shown of them visiting the ticket office and they are in possession of a seat reservation issued at that window in the time pictured. Surely if the staff member felt the ticket to be invalid, they wouldn't have issued it?

 

[AlterEgo]

Was the reservation issued as a separate coupon, showing it was valid with ticket [number]?

 

[GadgetMan]

CCTV would show you went to ticket office, it wouldn't show what ticket you showed them. Not saying it was, but it could've been the original 18:18 ticket that you may still have had in your app/email.

 

[Snow1964]

You had permission from an authorised person to travel on that service using that ticket, therefore your ticket was valid and you owe nothing - end of discussion.

The problem is proving that you got permission given that it wasn't in writing - having been issued a seat reservation is not proof in itself (you don't absolutely require a ticket to reserve a seat) - but it certainly corroborates your story.

There is presumably an audit trail in the reservations system, and it would presumably show a member of railway staff issued it for earlier train (I am unclear if reservation was new and old one deleted separately, or if it was transferred), there is no logic in why they would have done it, if they weren't giving permission to use that train.

I would go back, ask for the audit trail of the changed reservation, which will show railway staff did it, as part of giving you permission.

Point out the electronic audit trail will then collaborate your version, and not the guards incorrect version on the unpaid fare notice.

 

[pedr]

I strongly suspect if this were to go to court, LNER would struggle to argue "beyond reasonable doubt" that the OP wasn't given permission to travel if the CCTV is shown of them visiting the ticket office and they are in possession of a seat reservation issued at that window in the time pictured. Surely if the staff member felt the ticket to be invalid, they wouldn't have issued it?

In the magistrates' court in the kind of case that would be brought here, it would be for the defendant to prove that it was more likely than not that an authorised person provided authorisation to travel without a valid ticket. This is because where there is a crime expressed in general terms which then has provisos or statutory excuses, in a magistrates' court trial the burden of proving that the circumstances fit into the exception/excuse/proviso lies with the defence. (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/101)

 

[occone]

showed him the seat reservation I had been given. He said that this was not valid for travel.

I just want to check in on this - did you present the conductor with your ticket AND seat reservation?

Unless I misread your post, it sounds like you only presented the conductor with the seat reservation which is indeed not valid for travel, it usually says "only valid with ticket" at the top.

The ticket permits you to travel on the train, the seat reservation just means you can boot out anyone sat in the allocated seat when you board.

 

[gray1404]

Just for future reference: when you book an Advance ticket it is only valid for the train that you are booked on. If you change it to a different train be that earlier, later, on the same day or a different day, it then only becomes valid on the new train you have booked onto. It does not remain valid on your original booked train.

However it sounds like you were given permission to travel. Although it is worth noting it sounds like the person in the ticket office gave that permission thinking your ticket was valid on that train as that is the train you were booked onto?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==

For the sake of £22, and given that you were not actually on your booked train, I personally would pay this to bring a close to the matter before they try to apply any administration fees or revert to a prosecution, which is not unknown to happen. You do not want to be receiving a court summons surely.

If you then still felt grieved about having to pay an additional £22 you can complain to customer services and escalate to the Rail Ombudsman if you would like.

 

[occone]

Another thought - when OP went to amend their ticket, they should have been told there is a £10 charge to do so on an advance ticket, as is standard (and also listed on their site, under FAQs here https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets-savings/advance-tickets/)

"Advance tickets are not refundable. However, you can change your journey to another date. An industry-standard £10 admin fee will apply."

They would then take the old ticket away and hand you a shiny new one. But instead the member of staff just printed out a new reservation, possibly mistaking OPs ticket for a flexible ticket. That would be LNER's mistake, though in court they would almost certainly say it's up to the customer to ensure they have the right ticket.

My suggestion would be to pay the £22 fare now to get the clock stopped (thus preventing this resulting in a court hearing and possible criminal conviction), then email in and explain that you should have been informed there was a charge to change which train you caught, which would have enabled you to board with the correct ticket. I would then expect LNER to refund you the full £22 even if they try and save face by doing it as a "goodwill gesture".

If LNER only offer £12 back (claiming the £10 admin fee after the fact) I would argue that you didn't have that information at the time you made the decision to change train times, and therefore you should get the full amount back.

Seems like an innocent mistake, but nonetheless their mistake.

 

[158801]

I thought all tickets were printed with date and and time issued. Does the seat reservation coupon not show this ? If so that is proof of your visit to the ticket office at that time

 

[fandroid]

In the original post LNER reduced the new fare from £61 to £22. They obviously concede that the OP was not advised correctly. Could £22 be the difference between the Advance fare for the earlier train and the fare already paid online?

If so then the case for objecting to paying the £22 only rests on the LNER employee in the ticket office having made a concession to the OP that they probably weren't authorised to make.

But if the OP wasn't aware of this fare difference then they couldn't have been expected to challenge what they were told at the ticket office and to decide for themselves whether the extra was worth paying for an earlier journey.

 

[island]

Another thought - when OP went to amend their ticket, they should have been told there is a £10 charge to do so on an advance ticket, as is standard (and also listed on their site, under FAQs here https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets-savings/advance-tickets/)


They would then take the old ticket away and hand you a shiny new one. But instead the member of staff just printed out a new reservation, possibly mistaking OPs ticket for a flexible ticket. That would be LNER's mistake, though in court they would almost certainly say it's up to the customer to ensure they have the right ticket.

My suggestion would be to pay the £22 fare now to get the clock stopped (thus preventing this resulting in a court hearing and possible criminal conviction), then email in and explain that you should have been informed there was a charge to change which train you caught, which would have enabled you to board with the correct ticket. I would then expect LNER to refund you the full £22 even if they try and save face by doing it as a "goodwill gesture".

If LNER only offer £12 back (claiming the £10 admin fee after the fact) I would argue that you didn't have that information at the time you made the decision to change train times, and therefore you should get the full amount back.

Seems like an innocent mistake, but nonetheless their mistake.

I would agree with this course of action.

The burden of proof in a court that an authorised person gave permission to travel without a valid ticket falls on the defendant and is on the balance of probabilities. I think the OP would struggle to prove this.

Without knowing the specific tickets held and their prices it's difficult to say whether £61, £22, or some other amount is the "right" amount but the OP should have been charged the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for immediate use.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would agree with this course of action.

The burden of proof in a court that an authorised person gave permission to travel without a valid ticket falls on the defendant and is on the balance of probabilities. I think the OP would struggle to prove this.

Without knowing the specific tickets held and their prices it's difficult to say whether £61, £22, or some other amount is the "right" amount but the OP should have been charged the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for immediate use.

I suppose one would have to wonder “where did the reservation come from then?”

It would seem to me that a person obtaining such a reservation at the ticket office just before boarding would, on balance of probabilities, be able to demonstrate they had permission.

It would be helpful for the OP to post all their paperwork (redacted personal details) *and* the ticket and reservation.

Did they even show the original ticket on board? From the conversation it seems like they only showed a seat reservation.

 

[swt_passenger]

Another thought - when OP went to amend their ticket, they should have been told there is a £10 charge to do so on an advance ticket, as is standard (and also listed on their site, under FAQs here https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets-savings/advance-tickets/)


They would then take the old ticket away and hand you a shiny new one. But instead the member of staff just printed out a new reservation, possibly mistaking OPs ticket for a flexible ticket. That would be LNER's mistake, though in court they would almost certainly say it's up to the customer to ensure they have the right ticket.

Are you sure the original amendment to the time of travel from 1818 to 1918 was not completed on the website before the ticket was first issued? My reading of this is the OP never had the first ticket ordered, indeed the original change of time by one hour is not really relevant to the situation. He’s effectively just had an advance for the 1918, and asked at the ticket office if he can travel one hour early.

 

[Haywain]

I suppose one would have to wonder “where did the reservation come from then?”

Because of the way that LNER operate reservations, anyone can walk into a Travel Centre and ask for a reservation for the next train, and would likely be asked "have you got a ticket?" and on answering in the affirmative be given a reservation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2023 ==

Are you sure the original amendment to the time of travel from 1818 to 1918 was not completed on the website before the ticket was first issued? My reading of this is the OP never had the first ticket ordered, indeed the original change of time by one hour is not really relevant to the situation. He’s effectively just had an advance for the 1918, and asked at the ticket office if he can travel one hour early.

If the OP showed the original ticket, for the 1818, it will almost certainly have shown up as a cancelled ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]
If the OP showed the original ticket, for the 1818, it will almost certainly have shown up as a cancelled ticket.

Could we be in the realms of e-tickets here? Can you end up with both the original and amended e-ticket at the same time?

 

[AlterEgo]

Because of the way that LNER operate reservations, anyone can walk into a Travel Centre and ask for a reservation for the next train, and would likely be asked "have you got a ticket?" and on answering in the affirmative be given a reservation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2023 ==

That’s why this question:

Was the reservation issued as a separate coupon, showing it was valid with ticket [number]?

Is important. If it’s a freestanding seat reservation not accompanied by any ticket, that’s much less evidence than if it was issued “only valid with ticket 12345”.

 

[Haywain]

Could we be in the realms of e-tickets here? Can you end up with both the original and amended e-ticket at the same time?

I believe we are in the realms of eTickets. The original would be sent on booking, and a new ticket sent when it was changed with the original cancelled at that point. I suspect that original amount of the UFN is based on no ticket being held, with the amendment being based on the ticket for the later train needing to be amended.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2023 ==

If it’s a freestanding seat reservation not accompanied by any ticket, that’s much less evidence than if it was issued “only valid with ticket 12345”.

A seat reservation issued at a Travel Centre to the holder of an existing ticket will only ever be a freestanding reservation.

 

[mikeb42]

As someone happening to read this rather than one of the resident ticketing experts - and on the assumption that the OP's is an accurate and substantially complete account:

...she saw no reason why not and said, “You have paid for the journey”. She then asked if I had a reservation...

Everything up to this point implies that the clerk understood the OP to have a non-advance ticket. In particular, "...asked if I had a reservation" is a redundant question otherwise. Correct?

I showed her my ticket

...after which it seems the clerk has somehow still failed to note that OP had an advance purchase ticket. Routine amendments to these involve paying the difference in price to whatever the best fare available right now on the wanted service is plus usually a disproportionately high £10 admin fee. Correct? Even if the OP presented them with a cancelled ticket for the 18:18 it would still say "ADVANCE" on it. Correct? In that case, why would a ticket clerk not query the illogicality of amending a reservation on an advance purchase ticket for the 18:18 to the 18:18?

she gave me a new seat reservation for the 18.18.

As some of the resident experts have asked - did the reservation coupon have "Only valid with ticket xxxxxx" written on it? If so and the ticket number matches the otherwise valid ticket for the 19:18, that proves that the clerk has i) seen that ticket ii) scrutinised it and iii) still failed to note that the requested amendment is not possible within the rules.

Experts noting that The Railway will fall back on a blanket "It is your responsibility to ensure you have the correct ticket" are probably correct given the way things seem to work. That's an insult to anything resembling natural justice in a situation where a non-ticket-expert, i.e. customer, has actively consulted someone employed by The Railway for the sole purpose of being an expert on tickets who has then failed to handle the situation correctly. It is up to them to ask the right and sufficient questions to ensure a full understanding of the situation has been reached, given the Byzantine complexity of ticketing. They've probably just made a mistake this time, fine, they're only human. That's The Railway's problem though, not the customer who has been misinformed then landed with an unexpected bill, initially for a whopping £66.

I too would be outraged if I'd physically shown my ticket to a clerk in the situation as described and ended up with this outcome. For the sake of £22 I'd pay up to close down the possibility of them pursuing me through the courts and then make as much fuss as possible afterwards.

 

[Nottingham59]

She then asked if I had a reservation, I showed her my ticket and she gave me a new seat reservation for the 18.18.

Could you post on here, please, an image of the ticket and the seat reservation that you showed to the guard on the train? (e.g. a photo of paper tickets, or a screenshot if possible of a ticket held within an app). But block out any personal details that could identify you.

That would help avoid speculatiion on precisely what ticket and reservation type you held.

 

[Haywain]

did the reservation coupon have "Only valid with ticket xxxxxx" written on it?

As previously stated, this would only happen if the reservation was issued in conjunction with a ticket sold in the very same transaction.

 

[RichT35]

Thanks for all the useful advice. That's bean very helpful and I appreciate all the time people have spent answering. Just to clear things up -
My tickets were Advance e tickets.
I amended my original 18.18 ticket to the 19.18, online before I travelled and paid the £10 amendment fee.
As they were electronic I had the original 18.18, which I presumed was cancelled, and the new 19.18 ticket on my phone.
I showed the 19.18 ticket at the ticket office and said they were Advance tickets.
The ticket office printed the seat reservation at the Peterborough just before I travelled.
The Guard saw both electronic tickets and the paper seat reservation.
I have attached screenshots and images of the tickets and seat reservation.
The reduced amount they are offering me, as a gesture of goodwill, is for a super off peak single with senior rail card, £22.50 rather than an off peak ticket, without rail card£81.60 (I wrongly posted £61)
It seems the best course is to pay the £22.50 and then appeal to customer services and then Ombudsman.
Once again thanks for all your help

 

[30907]

Yes, I think pay up and then complain, as the booking clerk clearly intended you to be able to travel.

 

[methecooldude]

The ticket office printed the seat reservation at the Peterborough just before I travelled.

The eTicket has your seat printed on it, so I have to ask the silly question of why you though it needed to vist the office for a print out?

 

[MrJeeves]

The eTicket has your seat printed on it, so I have to ask the silly question of why you though it needed to vist the office for a print out?

Because the eTicket they were using was amended and re-issued for the 19:18 and they ended up wanting to use the 18:18. A reservation for the 19:18 isn't much use an hour earlier!

 

[methecooldude]

Because the eTicket they were using was amended and re-issued for the 19:18 and they ended up wanting to use the 18:18. A reservation for the 19:18 isn't much use an hour earlier!

Look at the attachments, the new 19:18 eTicket had a seat on it as well

 

[AlterEgo]

Look at the attachments, the new 19:18 eTicket had a seat on it as well

How is that relevant to the OP's problem?

 

[island]

The reduced amount they are offering me, as a gesture of goodwill, is for a super off peak single with senior rail card, £22.50 rather than an off peak ticket, without rail card£81.60 (I wrongly posted £61)
It seems the best course is to pay the £22.50 and then appeal to customer services and then Ombudsman.

I'm still not sure where £22.50 is coming from because there are no super off-peak singles on that flow, but I would agree that paying the sum would be a wise course of action.

 

[Cantab26]

I'm still not sure where £22.50 is coming from because there are no super off-peak singles on that flow, but I would agree that paying the sum would be a wise course of action.

It’s the difference between the BSZ Advance (£18.40) and the GDS Off-Peak Day Single (£40.90).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2023 ==

In this case I would pay the £22.50 and then drop the matter, but if you want to complain and seek a refund then pay it first.