CCTV on buses and coaches: pros and cons

[Simon75]

With modern buses and coaches having CCTV, what are peoples opinions them ?

 

[RJ]

Speaking as an operator, compulsory.

 

[richw]

As a driver, essential. Nothing to be worried about if I’m doing everything right. Cctv has twice proven my side now.

 

[Geordie driver]

Pros, stops imaginary passenger complaints.

Cons, stops you fiddling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With modern buses and coaches having CCTV, what are peoples opinions them ?

I most strongly object to audio CCTV; if talking to someone on the bus or making a phone call I don't think it's right that it be recorded. I'd actually like to see audio CCTV fully banned by law except for overt bodycams that need to be switched on manually to record a specific interaction which is more like recording a call to a call centre.

Video CCTV is a basic expectation, and something I have used in the past to have an incident involving a driver wilfully closing doors on someone at Luton Airport dealt with. Equally it protects most drivers, who are doing their jobs properly, from crime and helps allow that crime to be prosecuted.

 

[RT4038]

I most strongly object to audio CCTV; if talking to someone on the bus or making a phone call I don't think it's right that it be recorded. I'd actually like to see audio CCTV fully banned by law except for overt bodycams that need to be switched on manually to record a specific interaction which is more like recording a call to a call centre.

Video CCTV is a basic expectation, and something I have used in the past to have an incident involving a driver wilfully closing doors on someone at Luton Airport dealt with. Equally it protects most drivers, who are doing their jobs properly, from crime and helps allow that crime to be prosecuted.

Video only will not catch abusive or suggestive language, bullying or even plain misunderstandings. I see no reason why audio should not be captured - how do you know when some abuse needs to be recorded - it will have happened before there is any chance of switching on manually. How would passengers switch on the recording manually? Audio and Video keeps everyone protected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Video only will not catch abusive or suggestive language, bullying or even plain misunderstandings. I see no reason why audio should not be captured - how do you know when some abuse needs to be recorded - it will have happened before there is any chance of switching on manually. How would passengers switch on the recording manually? Audio and Video keeps everyone protected.

I find it unacceptable to have a system that can pick up and store private conversations. If I'm talking to someone sat next to me on the bus, I don't expect someone in an office later on to be able to listen to it, I expect only the people within reasonable vocal range to be able to hear it and not record it.

In short, I find that privacy vastly more important than the crime that would be prevented by recording private conversations.

To protect the driver, I suppose they could wear a bodycam and turn it on if a passenger looked to be getting "funny". I don't doubt this is already done in some places. Stating that you are about to record an encounter will often stop it occurring at all, which is the aim anyway - it's better to stop someone getting abusive or violent than to let them do so then prosecute them. (This is the same principle as overt speed cameras - the most successful speed camera is one that catches nobody at all because it's stopped the speeding that was previously occurring there).

It has huge GDPR implications, too. If I for instance give my name and phone number to someone, they are recording Personally Identifiable Information. If I mention a medical condition (perhaps I'm calling my doctor?), it becomes Special Category PII. Incidentally recording that sort of thing and potentially leaking it has all manner of issues surrounding it. Whereas if a crime is alleged it's possible to use the video to see that I'm on the phone and get information on who I was calling from my phone network. It shouldn't be trivially easy to collect this sort of thing - it should require the Police to do it and with appropriate authority.

It might be that for specific cases like vulnerable passengers or school buses that this is justifiable to some extent (e.g. to mitigate that only one adult, the driver, is in charge of a load of kids), but certainly not for regular service buses.

 

[RT4038]

I find it unacceptable to have a system that can pick up and store private conversations. If I'm talking to someone sat next to me on the bus, I don't expect someone in an office later on to be able to listen to it, I expect only the people within reasonable vocal range to be able to hear it and not record it.

In short, I find that privacy vastly more important than the crime that would be prevented by recording private conversations.

Ah, sorry - I would not be advocating Audio in the passenger saloon as such, only around the entrance door and drivers cab. If a passenger was talking that loud that the driver could hear it this would be an illegal distraction anyway.... notices would warn passengers that this recording may happen and, by implication, if they did not like it then be circumspect on their volume.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, sorry - I would not be advocating Audio in the passenger saloon as such, only around the entrance door and drivers cab. If a passenger was talking that loud that the driver could hear it this would be an illegal distraction anyway.... notices would warn passengers that this recording may happen and, by implication, if they did not like it then be circumspect on their volume.

Yes, I'd be fine with audio covering the driver's cab area only, set up such that it couldn't pick up anything in the saloon. Though as mentioned that can be achieved with bodycams too, and the overt nature of turning one on might avoid the incident happening at all - I bet drivers are quite good at working out who might be trouble.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, I'd be fine with audio covering the driver's cab area only, set up such that it couldn't pick up anything in the saloon. Though as mentioned that can be achieved with bodycams too, and the overt nature of turning one on might avoid the incident happening at all - I bet drivers are quite good at working out who might be trouble.

However, a bodycam is unlikely to be turned on when it is the driver who has caused the trouble....... (whatever it was?), or the public complaint about an 'unknown to the driver' allegation two days later. Bodycams are not a suitable substitute for in cab Audio and Video.

 

[L401CJF]

I've never known a bus to have audio cctv fitted in the saloon.

Audio CCTV is fitted to all Stagecoach buses, there is only 1 mic (unless things have changed since I worked there) and that is in the cab. I have heard audio recorded from it, you can hear all cab conversations and nothing further from that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, a bodycam is unlikely to be turned on when it is the driver who has caused the trouble....... (whatever it was?), or the public complaint about an 'unknown to the driver' allegation two days later. Bodycams are not a suitable substitute for in cab Audio and Video.

Fair point, and the cab isn't the place for the driver to be having private conversations any more than the tills at Tesco are, you do that when you're on your break away from the vehicle.

I bet if you listen to it there's a constant stream of muttered swearing about other drivers though!

 

[Ken H]

I have never used a credit card to pay a bus fare - I have an ENCTS card now. But if you do, I assume you put your card on the ticket machine face up. Is there any protection so the CCTV cant be set up to 'see' credit cards.
My client turns off the phone call recording when taking a card payment. So the card details are not on the audio recording.

 

[RT4038]

Fair point, and the cab isn't the place for the driver to be having private conversations any more than the tills at Tesco are, you do that when you're on your break away from the vehicle.

I bet if you listen to it there's a constant stream of muttered swearing about other drivers though!

I think it highly unlikely that anyone at a bus company has got the time and the stamina to listen to it, unless specifically investigating a report/incident. It is quite boring!! Big companies will have policies, possibly backed up by TU agreements, banning 'trawling' anyway.

Gosh, imagine listening to a number of individual microphones in the passenger saloon and upper deck as well! Positively North Korean!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it highly unlikely that anyone at a bus company has got the time and the stamina to listen to it, unless specifically investigating a report/incident. It is quite boring!! Big companies will have policies, possibly backed up by TU agreements, banning 'trawling' anyway.

True. I think I would say that what sort of monitoring occurs with regard to drivers and the cab is going in most cases to be a matter between the company and the Union. It's just the passenger saloon where I think it should be video-only in order not to breach privacy (though can see an argument for well-signed audio as well in some specific contexts like dedicated school buses and other transport of vulnerable people to mitigate the risk of Safeguarding incidents), though even then the privacy risk is high.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

Gosh, imagine listening to a number of individual microphones in the passenger saloon and upper deck as well! Positively North Korean!

I suppose they wouldn't even bother with it on the bus, they'd just record a constant stream from mobile phones...there's certainly plenty of potential for covert bugging if a bad actor wanted to do it, with mobile phones and Alexas etc everywhere!

 

[zero]

I have never used a credit card to pay a bus fare - I have an ENCTS card now. But if you do, I assume you put your card on the ticket machine face up. Is there any protection so the CCTV cant be set up to 'see' credit cards.
My client turns off the phone call recording when taking a card payment. So the card details are not on the audio recording.

The CCTV may not be high definition enough to pick up the card details. But it could be.

It doesn't matter which way you put your card on the machine. Although most of my bank cards issued in the past year or so, now have the numbers printed on the "back" so if I presented the card "face up" the private information would not be seen.

Many people hold only one corner of their card when presenting it to readers (on buses or elsewhere). I always hold the card completely inside my hand so only the corners of the card can be seen.

Once in Sweden I had to pay a bus fare by Chip & PIN and the numbers were on the front, so any CCTV may well have captured them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With almost everywhere using 3D Secure and the CVV being on the back, a photo of your card isn't much use for anything, really. And Chase have started the trend of not printing the number on the card at all, I think that'll become more common. FWIW my Monzo card has it on the back.

 

[stuu]

My barclaycard has nothing on the front, and all the details printed on the back. I don't use it regularly for contactless often so I'm not too bothered, but it seems an odd choice to have it all capturable like that

 

[BenS123]

Big companies will have policies, possibly backed up by TU agreements, banning 'trawling' anyway.

"The Yellows" (Yellow Buses of Bournemouth) had a policy where they would only ever look at CCTV footage if requested by the police. Go South Coast has the same policy I believe.

Edit: regarding bank card capturing, I'd say a combination of the QR code reader arm (on ticketer machines) and the person tapping the card makes it almost impossible to get a recording of the card on the actual machines.

 

[Simon75]

As a passenger, it makes not only me, but the driver and passengers feel safe.
However drivers generally wouldn't have 'words' with customers , because of cctv

 

[Ediswan]

My barclaycard has nothing on the front, and all the details printed on the back. I don't use it regularly for contactless often so I'm not too bothered, but it seems an odd choice to have it all capturable like that

Same here. I assumed the idea was that you can mostly use the card 'face up' and avoid exposing any of the details. The only time I turn mine over is when I need to read the number to make an online purchase.

 

[L401CJF]

The quality on all cctv systems I've ever seen is nowhere near high enough quality to read card details even on the newer vehicles.

 

[LUYMun]

I regard them as an alternative to assault screens, which often rattles and reflects sunlight, proving to be distracting to drivers. CCTV also provides concrete evidence to support prosecutions.

 

[Mwanesh]

Audio cctv is actually good from a drivers point of view. Has saved a few drivers from false complaints by passengers. It normally just picks up the cab area.

 

[Busaholic]

Without CCTV, and of a quality sufficient to read the number plate of a stationary car, Wayne Couzens might still be a free man emboldened to commit further heinous offences. Happily TfL not only insist on their use but still provide sufficient Sunday evening services to further the opportunity of such a thing miraculously happening. You might gather I am therefore, and if for no other reason, a huge fan.

 

[Eyersey468]

With modern buses and coaches having CCTV, what are peoples opinions them ?

Speaking as a driver, I'm glad we have it to be honest. Yes it can be used against you, but in the event of an incident it can also clear a driver of blame or wrong doing as well